WEBVTT

00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:29.000 so that's putting a big rock in the pool perhaps and now we're talking chapter 2.

00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:34.000 So i've been reviewing that today. as Well, and I just come to it with new ideas.

00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:46.000 A little bit, I guess, like Hank your introduction saying that you're looking at these multiple perspectives at once in a in a channel.

00:01:46.000 --> 00:02:06.000 Where you know, you've got very qualified people looking at something back from completely different starting points, making that conversation, just assuming that you know, and I have no reason to believe anything that that the david's when they wrote

00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:17.000 dawn of everything and took him lots of perspectives. There are perspectives outside that they could not have taken in because they weren't those people.

00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:22.000 I wonder if everybody had a chance to look over the reviews that I posted in the

00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:26.000 Thank you. But the yeah I thought that second review was very well done, you know.

00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:33.000 Here's the stuff that they missed that they did not take into account, or that they've mentioned but didn't really take seriously.

00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:44.000 And did you see my answer to that by the way I haven't actually i'm sorry markets one I need I'm, maybe I didn't get a a jiggle that you'd you'd painted down on that so i'll have to

00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:53.000 go back and look I Okay, th there there's the should we get into the meet of that because it's really interesting.

00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:59.000 I I would if if you could hold I would like to go over some kind of administ trivia stuff.

00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:04.000 And I don't wanna take too much time on it.

00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.000 But I also kinda wanna get us all together a little bit.

00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:14.000 So here, let me share my screen and today, i'm trying an experiment.

00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Well, I don't know if that's the right way to say it.

00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:31.000 I really liked how Well, both both Chapter one meetings did great job taking notes on Google Docs Google Docs is a little bit of a pain to get back into the into the website.

00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.000 And so I was hoping we could switch over to

00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Hackham D. And so let me actually let me share more of my screen.

00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Maybe

00:03:51.000 --> 00:04:04.000 So to to me I hackon be so when I when I share link there's a link in in chat to this and i'm gonna copy it and paste it again when I share a link like

00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:12.000 this i've i've set it up so anyone can write, and so let me kind of show you what this might look like.

00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.000 If you go to it, and you're not logged in real quick. Wow!

00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:29.000 That was cool. I think I don't know what I did

00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:39.000 I hit a hockey or something that did something That's weird.

00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:44.000 , Yeah. Hello, with tech geniuses out smart themselves or something.

00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:51.000 So you can see my screen you just might you can't see me so i'll keep going with that is that right?

00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:56.000 You're good correct and then I can fix that a little bit more offline.

00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:02.000 So. what I wanted to do now i'm scared to hit the hot key again?

00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:09.000 Pacing that link in. So when you come to a hack, and d you might see it like this.

00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:14.000 This is kind of the the web view web page view of it.

00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:21.000 You can click this edit button here and then it's kind of trying to tempt you to sign in. but you don't.

00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:26.000 You can just ignore that you don't have to sign in Just ignore that.

00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:34.000 And then over here our view controls. You can have this all markdown or mark down in html, or just html

00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:42.000 They just One works right Well, by the way, Judy found out that she could have this view on on her ipad, I think.

00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:49.000 And then she had the other view to edit, and that worked really well for her, cause you could kind of see everything and do stuff.

00:05:49.000 --> 00:06:09.000 So if it's. okay, i'll share my screen, maybe a little bit in this view, and pretty much all you have to do is under notes from this meeting. you can just type stuff and typing stuff is just just regular

00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:16.000 text is is fine and markdown, and if you want to make a bullet list, you can just use the dash.

00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:21.000 Like this, and that's kind of all you need to know for now

00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:25.000 So multiple people can be typing in the same place at the same time.

00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:32.000 It's kind of like Google, docs except we didn't have to log in and This will be a lot easier to turn into website.

00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:46.000 So for the folks who know mark down a little bit I I did a fence it so ignore this, if it's confusing, and don't, if you if it's not confusing this is a a little bit, of

00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:54.000 an little and advanced markdown thing for check took part checkmarks.

00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:02.000 So this made a checkbox list over here so i'm gonna click using

00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:07.000 So then I wanna talk about big questions, Syntax Poll and Wikipedia.

00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:15.000 If you go to the website which this link, I think, is at the top of the Metamos channel.

00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:29.000 I hope it's also kind of easy to remember don of everything. That book circle dot academy I've made a new page or been kind of threatening to make this page for a while and finally got got to

00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:45.000 it. a page of big questions. so these are kind of collected from the conversations that we've had so far and especially thanks, Ken, for collating these out of out of the book. itself.

00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:54.000 But there's some really interesting things in here that have kind of come up in conversation, and the the way to capture these.

00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:01.000 It. It has a lot that. I typed big question all caps in notes.

00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:17.000 And then, you know a question that had come up, so I think for me this you know, that if if we have anything we'll have a nice website, I think, after the book after we get done with the book.

00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:19.000 But this to me kind of seems like the core of it.

00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:27.000 For this particular book. it's about questions and questioning and you know whether or not you rely on answers and and things like that.

00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:35.000 So i'm i'm pretty excited about the big questions page I wanted to point out that I've got a link at the top. here.

00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.000 You can click on this and you can edit it as a hack.

00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:54.000 Md. document. So again, if you click that edit thing you can edit this page, and process wise i'm gonna come in your changes will change on the hack.

00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:07.000 Md. page they won't change on the website until I push a button somewhere. and i'll push that button once or once once a day, maybe once every other day something like that or if you ping me in matter

00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:14.000 most Then I can do it i'm sorry it's a little bit clunky and and like that.

00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:21.000 But it's still pretty good I I encourage you to read through this add stuff.

00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:26.000 Add some. I don't know maybe answers or different kinds of sections here right now.

00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.000 I've got reflections this is a reflection from Jordan.

00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:41.000 That kind of came out of the conversation. and then, you know, as you find them in the book or in in reviews, or something like that, it would be awesome to start collecting in here. too.

00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:52.000 So I encourage you to again the way to get to that way to get to that and go to the Don of everything book circle.

00:09:52.000 --> 00:10:01.000 And if you click here or home, you get to home and then in contents, there's big questions, and then you can click on it all.

00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:16.000 Seems a little bit more complicated than I wish it was but say love, you Okay, it it's an old joke from there was a a group of Comedian street performers in Boston, and they'll always say Sylvia

00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:23.000 and everything like. Well, Lavie, so my my oldest daughter did that.

00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:28.000 When she was 4 or something like that so i'd be love you?

00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:32.000 Why did I say love you?

00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:37.000 So you mentioned something important here. I think that that might just slip by people. it.

00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:42.000 I brick Myers up, and you said, ping me in madamos, what is the best way to get hold of if we want you?

00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:46.000 Is it matter most? Is it email? Do we text you what's the fastest?

00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:51.000 If we need you to, madam, most is one of the best ways.

00:10:51.000 --> 00:11:03.000 Okay, everything that pressing but it's nice to know that you know, cause some people don't respond email for a couple of days, and people are going.

00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:05.000 Why are you so slow and it's like I don't check email.

00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:09.000 So I just I've learned this recently to ask What's the best way to get hold of you if we need you.

00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:14.000 It's a good question. Thanks. emails works pretty well, too. okay.

00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:20.000 So i'm gonna check that one off. you can ask you a question first about that.

00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:25.000 So the Web, the website and the hack and d's in your mind?

00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:40.000 Can you help me understand how what the difference is and what we're curating and the website together versus what's happening on matter most, and when things should migrate from matter most to the web page.

00:11:40.000 --> 00:12:06.000 Yes, and i'm gonna do that in diagrams sorry

00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:20.000 So there's the website and there is matter most

00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:25.000 And one more

00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:31.000 We need to have one more thing in that hacker. D.

00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:40.000 Back and D.

00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:58.000 So zoom, Chat: Yeah, meat space. Did they put me space or because I know some of you are are close enough.

00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:09.000 You can actually do that you know there's other boxes too like obsidian, and and and github, and make it kind of keep going for a while.

00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:14.000 You can do me a favor. Just make that window bigger, so we can actually see it a little bit better.

00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:18.000 Yeah, the window bigger, or is zoom that that window bigger?

00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:26.000 Yes, just that helps a little bit, and I could probably assume it a little bit more, too.

00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:36.000 . So there's also github and you know i'm gonna put another one down here, and I don't know if we want to talk about it today.

00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:45.000 But hypothesis, I can mention it basically since it's on the picture.

00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:53.000 So? no. I totally lost the website. or did I? I cover that right?

00:13:53.000 --> 00:14:03.000 Yeah. So the way I see it 6 months from now our our our club goes through September.

00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:09.000 And at that point we will have covered the whole book and theoretically we'll kind of wrap up

00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:17.000 I I would like us to leave behind the website. hang on.

00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:26.000 I just realized that this is Hmm. you know. Actually, this is 2 separate things.

00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:39.000 Yeah,

00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:56.000 It makes it obvious why we don't. interact cleanly or we have this number of places of everything mapping

00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:04.000 channel. But I that's a good one Michael like really really good.

00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:12.000 Did it? did it? I tell you how this is connected to the Meta project?

00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:23.000 So So at you know in end of September eleventh, I think we'll have a website.

00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:28.000 So that's this website that we'll be able to leave behind kind of forever.

00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:33.000 And it'll have all of our meetings and then for each meeting.

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:40.000 It's got links out to Youtube and It's got a link to the transcript and the Zoom chat.

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.000 And then the meeting notes that we're taking in Google docs for Hackham Day.

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:50.000 So that's kind of that's maybe the that's the non composted level. level.

00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:56.000 This is the the raw material we're gonna continue to grow

00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:02.000 Bill and I are working on the Wiki at least, and and maybe some of the others of this will, too.

00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:16.000 But you know we we're collecting names of people and and starting a little bit about each of those people on this on this website.

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:28.000 And so this whole thing is gonna be a hopefully rich kind kind of repository of our conversations.

00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:36.000 And this stuff around our conversations. I would love to get into the point where we're also not just having meetings.

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:45.000 But we're actually having reflections. on some of the meetings where reflections over a series of meetings so big questions is already that kind of you know.

00:16:45.000 --> 00:17:02.000 It's it's a very small start on it but it's it's at the start of us composting the raw material from the meetings into a more rich soil.

00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:08.000 So So yeah, the up the composting and reflections on the composting are also valid.

00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:33.000 Takeoff point as well, and and the nature of the numbers of people in the and how a meeting shouldn't be into that, because I think there's a lot to be taken not just away from the content but about the process

00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:41.000 So So then, so the the website is kind of the the central, you know everything.

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:46.000 Everything should kind of flow towards there. because, we have recordings.

00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:51.000 Another repository will be Youtube probably for a long time.

00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:54.000 So I don't know if it's worth junking this up.

00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.000 I could draw lines and i'll i'll finish this diagram off.

00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:02.000 I don't have to do it live but you can see just from what I did that.

00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:15.000 How come to your Google Docs meeting notes ended up end up on the website.

00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:22.000 Zoom transcripts end up on the website. Zoom recordings end up in Youtube with a link from the website.

00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.000 I would hope that conversations in matter. most so I guess madam, most is kind of 2 things.

00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:37.000 It's kind of in the moment

00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:55.000 Coordination stuff. but Then there's a like rich discussions, or something like that when when there's a interesting discussion that has taken It's kind of like a discussion that could have taken place in zoom or it could

00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:08.000 have taken place in meat space. those yeah it's not worth playing around with lines right now.

00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:18.000 These things happen in matter most, and the rich discussions should end up in the website as well.

00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:24.000 Hmm, zoom chat ends up in the website.

00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:29.000 So then there's some back end stuff github and obsidian.

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:38.000 And kind of even Youtube is plumbing. the helps us run the website.

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.000 How come d we can use it for meeting notes.

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:59.000 And then also with this big questions thing I did a a different kind of use of it, which is to use it as a editable page on the on the website the pages themselves are aren't kind of super editable on the website

00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:08.000 You could also do a derivative of the website down track it like a simplified version of it potentially.

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.000 Yeah, it's a that's a good observation.

00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:33.000 I like that one. so Probably probably nobody here has seen it but mark checks, and I work on what he calls micro sites which takes his multi- 100,000 The brain version of climate science and distills it down to you know an

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:39.000 8 page or 10 page little micro website. So we could do the same thing with our our website.

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:48.000 We could fold it. this is not the website we could fold it into, you know.

00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:53.000 I like a a poster session at at university, or something like that.

00:20:53.000 --> 00:21:08.000 Or you know, a Powerpoint or something. So we could kind of encapsulate all of this into, you know, an 8 8 side presentation or poster, or a Pdf.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:20.000 Or you know something like that. here's you know here's a rich overview of don of everything and and a bunch of people working to compost it.

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:34.000 Did that? Does that answer your question? Wendy? and more than I needed for the moment

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.000 , , you know I like mapping and flows.

00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:46.000 So I actually found it really, really helpful in general and I still think there's probably a bit of a question about, you know.

00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:58.000 Sounds like if conversations start and matter most, and then become a rich thread that that that's kind of the trigger for for it to be considered, maybe its own page, or to become part of the website, So the website is the

00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:05.000 harvesting of all these other all these other repositories right of what?

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:16.000 And so in the end we're saying this is what we've curated from all this time together, rather than the website being the holding space for all the information we have all the information in other spaces the website becomes the whole holding space

00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:21.000 for the curation, the sense making the some of the answers we found, or some of the leading questions.

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:33.000 We still have that remain after after we're done the the website ends up hosting most of it, and and it's the stuff that it doesn't fit that it doesn't host.

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:40.000 Yes, the website is where we harvest things and it's the rich thing.

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:48.000 I since since we're taking a little bit of extra time on this, and and I want to make sure that we talk about chapter 2.

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:56.000 But I wanted to show one more thing there's a a cool plugin called Hypothesis.

00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:06.000 And this works on any any website. Actually, let me find that Wikipedia Page.

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:17.000 I wonder if I guess I guess I I guess bad hypothesis is a little sidebar that you can pop up on any website.

00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:29.000 And then it'll. show anybody who has a hypothesis can view the annotations to the the web page, and anybody can add annotations.

00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:35.000 And so the down of everything books are called homepage is annotated.

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:49.000 I highlighted this and made a a comment that i've I've got a commitment to fold in things that people add via hypothesis into the the wiki itself so

00:23:49.000 --> 00:24:14.000 that's some another way yet another way, you had another point another way to do contribute to this page you could highlight stuff. and And you know, added annotation. or is there a group or is there okay,

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:21.000 it would be nice to have a common hypothesis group, so we can annotate other stuff, and it would be visible to the group.

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:31.000 I I i'm a hypothesis Newbie and I don't know about groups you can create a group.

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:35.000 And then explicitly add hypothesis, users, and then connotations.

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:40.000 You can list all the annotations in that group that we were made against that group.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:56.000 It's not just everybody in the group it's you've made that annotation in that group, so we could make a do a group, and then we could say, this goes there and then make that visible, and and then if i'm

00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:02.000 understanding correctly, we would, You would also end up with a view from different websites.

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:15.000 Right, So we could go to a website that's a book review about don of everything the the Ken's criticism like I could make hypothesis things of cans and we could add

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.000 them. I will set up a doe hypothesis group.

00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:25.000 Thanks, Mark, and one

00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:32.000 Okay, So let's next 2 topics should be real quick.

00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:37.000 Maybe you've seen it I think yeah in the dialogue, everything.

00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000 Metamos channel. Ken had the interesting suggestion that, hey?

00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:46.000 We could just do kind of the same thing for sandalk right now.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.000 Because ken happens to be reading sand talk

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:55.000 To be fair. It also comes up a lot in our conversations around Don of everything.

00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:11.000 So there's a poll in madam most and this you don't have to have contributed to the poll.

00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:17.000 I wanted to suggest that maybe you want to so we've got 6 votes for is yes, starting soon.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:30.000 2 people are are yeah i'd be interested but I don't want to do it concurrently with don of everything i'd have to say from this poll it's looking like Maybe we should get get one

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:36.000 started and let's discuss that more on matter most I think so.

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:48.000 Then the last thing also probably You've seen this somewhere. Tyson, Yonka Porta, and Santok. Neither one of them has a Wikipedia page, and so there are a few of us who are going to be

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:58.000 doing building Wikipedia. pages so just today I started in the new Wikipedia Channel, and feel free to join this channel, and and

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:06.000 We'll have an expedition in Mid-may probably. Wikipedia Kevin.

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:14.000 Yeah yeah Wikipedia is a bit of a beast, and I I haven't I haven't let on that.

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:21.000 That's the case anywhere. but editing creating a Wikipedia page, and then making it something that stays there.

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:32.000 Is a bit of a bit of a social, mostly social, and a little bit of technological hair raising this.

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:43.000 And so It's it's a fun thing to know about and it's fun to know why why and how you build Wikipedia pages, but also plainly on the face of it Tyson needs a

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:46.000 Wikipedia Page and Sand Talk needs a Wikipedia page.

00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:52.000 So many brands that went with one stone. thanks,

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:59.000 That took more than I. I thought it would. but We covered all kinds of interesting stuff and

00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:04.000 I wanna make sure that we do a retro at the end of the call.

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:13.000 So. i'll wait in about 15 min before the end of the call, and let's let's retro and check out.

00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:19.000 So with that. let's get back into market one if if I've not completely blown your stack.

00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:29.000 You were about to the other stuff. Sorry I I this needed to be said, but I was like, okay. that's fine so.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:34.000 But but I don't know in terms sorry in terms of agenda.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:43.000 Are we discussing chapter 2, where we discussed seeing Kans criticism, which is a whole thing in itself, and could take whatever time is left.

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:55.000 I'm good with either one the the the but okay, let's let's then try to not everybody has read the criticism.

00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:14.000 So we really should go over it up to a point but what they're saying is central is well one thing they're saying many things, but one thing they're saying is one argument throughout that of everything is we don't have clear

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:25.000 solid evidence on what was the social order at earlier or and there again.

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:32.000 So linear narration of these are the stages of development of social do.

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:46.000 These are details, the stages of social evolution so they're kind of refusing the notion that there's an initial state because they're refusing the linear storytelling. and here there are people who say no no We have pretty

00:29:46.000 --> 00:30:04.000 good evidence about an initial state so maybe and and There are a bit of sense that they deny that the 2 David's don't go into what is known about the initial state, and clearly the initial state according to these people is

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.000 much regulatory. Now, assuming this is all true, and I have no reason to doubt it.

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:27.000 By the way, I don't think it's undermines the basic argument of none of everything which is, even if there is an initial state, there still needn't be a linear evolution of society from initial

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:33.000 diversity or initial equality to the current. We are locked in hierarchies.

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:41.000 The basic gardening of the David is we? You could imagine something different, You we used to.

00:30:41.000 --> 00:31:01.000 We always have no reason not to do it. Now that remains I think, whether or not the initial state was universal or there we, or unknownable as the 2 days it's our claiming, I think that on asking the question of the

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:17.000 initial state was just a way. for the 2 david's to and ask the question of of undermine the notion of linear history and saying, You know, we don't need to solve that problem Now if that problem happens to be

00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:25.000 solved even better. right. but I think that was just not there issues.

00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:35.000 So I understand why people who have a huge stake in was their initial state are annoyed about this question being unhappy.

00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:42.000 Graver and windrow. But I don't think it has huge impact on the basic notion.

00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:59.000 We can imagine something else that was diversity that's it. These people, the critics, the critics, are making very, very interesting. other points which absolutely are worth diving into. one is that I felt fascinating personally and

00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:13.000 there are others is how there's this huge correlation between hierarchy like class inequality and gender inequality, and how they seem to have co evolved that's absolutely worth thinking

00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:26.000 into and there's something about i've rocked this classes

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:49.000 Oh, yeah, what is the basically the the I would call it class warfare up to a point the notion that there has been strong effort by honing and powerful classes to undermine certain social order and which I

00:32:49.000 --> 00:33:06.000 don't think that again grayber, would deny at any point, but they do go into the question of the Constituent assembly like, what is the But, anyway, there's there's a whole, chapter on class struggle which I think is

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:14.000 extremely important. and the call queue. yeah, the question of materialism how important are material conditions.

00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:30.000 And there I must see him a bit more close to when grow the and and and it's material conditions are probably important determinants, but not absolute determinants.

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:48.000 Again grabber, and when grow tried to say it's not the absolute. and pro the critics are saying well, certain material conditions are necessary for the a rise of inequality, which may still be true. it remains through that it's

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:54.000 not as absolute. But anyway, the critical we're reading there's definitely important stuff there.

00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:01.000 I don't think it undermines the value of the book that's my short version of the critics.

00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:04.000 But then we'd have to dig into the details I don't remember them.

00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:13.000 Are there big questions in their market fund that you would kind of leave behind constant stones the th, the big?

00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:22.000 The big first question is, What is there such an a thing as a initial state of human society?

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:37.000 Right grab, and went grow un ask the question and decide we can't know, and we don't care, because after that it's all arbitrary and diverse and the critics say yeah, there is one and it matters to

00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:52.000 the question of How did inequality arise so that's a big question, I mean, if if there is indeed a universal egalitarian state, you know, egalitarian initial state then the

00:34:52.000 --> 00:35:03.000 question of the evolution of inequality takes a slightly different angle.

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:20.000 Then, if we're seeing there was always diversity or the past its route in mystery so that's a big question, and I think the other big question that they're asking is how it's it's the whole

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:27.000 question of material determinism, how much to material means of production and material structures.

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:34.000 Production encourage? Are they probably necessary conditions for the right of inequality?

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:43.000 Are they sufficient conditions? Those are really the questions right? Can you have something to add?

00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:49.000 Yeah, I was very struck when they were recounting some of the old stories of you know it.

00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:55.000 There was a time when animals in humans communicated, and you know they could.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.000 They could shift shift, and they see, you know, from an evolutionary perspective.

00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:09.000 There was a time when we were shifting from being apes in into being humans, and we know about primate societies is that they're, you know, especially chimpanzees.

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:18.000 For example, very Machiavellian, a lot of hierarchy and and politics and stuff, and and somewhere along the line.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:24.000 So it seems to me like the initial stages and we're going back maybe a 1 million years, because we're talking about 3 million years here.

00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:29.000 I don't know I don't actually know How long This is but yeah versus bonobos Exactly.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:33.000 That's you can talk about the binomial revolution Thompson Willie Parkers.

00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:46.000 But kansas point is that what's separates humans from other primates is that we're super organisms because we actually, while we do have that genetic programming to be mockyvelling and political and

00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:50.000 and under unranded, and and, you know, always trying to get one up on people. are there?

00:36:50.000 --> 00:37:05.000 I should say we also have grandmothers that that live past menopause and help contribute to the raising of children, and we connect in what she calls a superorgism way where we take care of the hole in

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:11.000 ways that there are no parallels in primate societies to what humans do in terms of coming up with civilizations.

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:24.000 So there's something that happened and we don't know when and we don't know how, but it seems to be an enormous question hanging in the background of what created that and that goes directly to this question of what is the

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:37.000 origin of inequality, because, if in my mind if we're transitioning from being an ape-like society to a humanized society, it probably started out as being very unequal with dominant males, and then

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:43.000 somehow or another that shifted to becoming equal, and that were on unequal footing.

00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000 And so maybe it's a dynamic thing that keeps tripping down the generations in evolution. I don't know.

00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:53.000 I'm, i'm very much in a big question state here, so I just thought i'd throw that in the background.

00:37:53.000 --> 00:38:10.000 I do think we've got lots of different models here if you take the root of the same indigenous cultures in particular continuous ones have the ability to view nature in a way that we've lost and so you

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:16.000 know you can talk about, you know an animistic view where you've got an animal that you can interact with.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:23.000 But that's not the only model there's lots of models there, and many different biological ones.

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:38.000 And I think the materiality of that and how we record that, and how we talk about it, and how we observe it has got to fit in there somewhere, because this a really long interaction that are very very deep, and they're also

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:47.000 informing how people actually survived. you know if this one worked better than that one in this particular region. But in another region it was quite different.

00:38:47.000 --> 00:39:01.000 So there's a materiality that got behind these interactions about how we record them, and how we've interrogated things that we've learned from over time and they're very situated in the context that people are

00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:16.000 in , if you didn't have 8 in your context, if you have, you know butterflies and insects more in your context, you're observing different systems different social systems, and how you record, them and how you

00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:20.000 work with that, and weave them, and and the epigenetics of all of that.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:32.000 That's a really big tapestry to be talking about

00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:37.000 Yeah, that I I guess the real, not the real but one of the underlying big questions.

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:51.000 I don't know if it's explicitly made but it's the whole how much of inequality and power is nature versus nurture right I mean and and and that meets how can it be

00:39:51.000 --> 00:40:00.000 changed. i'm not a fan of thinker but he did say you know There, there's a whole current of lift wing.

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:15.000 Thought that says, you know it's all cultural because we're not happy with the idea that power should be ingrained in our range genetics which I personally believe I think bigger is wrong on this But

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:26.000 the's, either. We we want to know and and there's certainly been a kind of wishful thinking of the left.

00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:37.000 And again I include myself here on. I think that, inequality is not wired into our brain because we wanted it to not be wired in our brain.

00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:44.000 But I actually believe frankly is that both equality and inequality and mechanisms are there in our brain or otherwise.

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:54.000 And what? how these mechanisms become potential, actualized, from potential to actualized in a given society.

00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:09.000 It depends on society history and there are, there's evidence of that of societies triggering pro-social or egotistic behavior.

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:22.000 And that's why I tend to believe it's not purely genetic, or at least if it's genetic, it's everybody's genetic as opposed to you know the sociobiological

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:29.000 nightmare of Here are the

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:37.000 So they're equally distributed then it becomes a way to explain why some society's dominated others, you know.

00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:43.000 That's one nightmare scenario But again you want to know Why don't we?

00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:49.000 But certainly does a big question. how much of this is ingrained, and how much of this is something we can change.

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:57.000 That's the underlying big question had the base of all those books and all those arguments.

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:13.000 So I I think you stepped into something very important, and that is the kind of either, or that it's a mix and part of the advantage of current economic intellectual thinking is to be willing to consider several paths

00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:21.000 simultaneously, and we live in a culture that pushed us to either, or it's either this or is that.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:32.000 In fact, almost everything is a blend which means it takes narrative and sensitivity to figure out what's actually going on.

00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:54.000 Totally, totally totally agreed. and for me, this is one of the virtues of the graver book, because, by telling the history of diversity of social forms, it's very much showing the actual reality of this blend in human history

00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:58.000 I also think listening to their critique of the Indians.

00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:08.000 I love this chapter by the way the indigenous critique. I just I was thought this was such a great fricking chapter right? I've listened to it twice, and i'll probably go back with it again.

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:16.000 And you know the the fact that so much of our modern thinking is still predicated under.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:27.000 So it's amazing to me. This is one guy cooked up all this shit, and it's still just spread all over the place like how talk about lack of a imagination!

00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:32.000 Just I'm just making a comment here? just it just really struck me as why is Ro so so still?

00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:47.000 So you know, such a huge figure. I mean there should be way more lines of thought songlines, if you will out there that we should be paying attention to

00:43:47.000 --> 00:44:03.000 Oh, so! and so who I think cool yeah and terribly? I can't pronounce the name the one who was formulated for the first time the the 4 steps in humanity's development there's

00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:18.000 a nice point right at the end of the chapter when they're taking stock, and they sort of they're not condemning you so, except that he made his indigenous people a kind of thought experiment and script them

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:27.000 of all humanity. but I think, for the experiments are really important, and they have been important since.

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:44.000 Well before the the seventeenth century. But what I really like in in the whole book, and certainly this chapter is the the idea of where some of the source codes of our modern thinking come from and they come from people.

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:50.000 Like so. but chair go even more, and they come from what?

00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:09.000 What the David called nineteenth century. Imperialists, who sort of made a a dogmatic model for the oppression of people in there, the the the lens they colonized, and what I really love in in the whole

00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:28.000 book and it's a special part in this chapter which just indicates how our thinking got frozen into these into these sort of a fake paradigm. So that's not the right word but you know what I mean So

00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:32.000 what I really like in this chapter, and maybe other people would like to comment on.

00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:54.000 That is the idea of the enlightenment having action actually come about because of the introduction of a very intelligent, perhaps even much more intelligent, non European thinking.

00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:10.000 And, as you may know I mean there's there's a lot of chatter in in Europe and the European Commission, and even the United Nations system extent of what they call enlightenment 2.0 or 3.0 so then it makes you

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:21.000 wonder if it took totally alien for Europeans if it took totally alien impulses.

00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:43.000 Change the way Europeans fourth and on understood society what do we need in the 20 first century, and I don't think it's going to be just indigenous thinking, because i'm also reading San thought now and and

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:51.000 he's very negative about the way non indigenous people.

00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:02.000 Look at indigenous wisdom these days. But what is there that is so alien to our thinking, and so called?

00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:06.000 Western knowledge societies that could spark a totally new way of thinking.

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:11.000 Anyway. that's what I wanted to put on the same.

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:21.000 I'm just so. I would add to that and thank you that's, I think, really really important that we're using words and language in ways.

00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:32.000 It. don't necessarily allow us to describe the intersections between different cultures.

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:45.000 So you know, if you and and know that I'm sort of privileged at looking in great detail some of the yeah set tasks and young to port his head with Dave Snowden and indigenous other people impact new Guinea

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:58.000 and Australia and Turtle Island North America the woods that are used to describe Concepts exist in these other languages.

00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:11.000 The those concepts just don't exist, in the language that we're using to escape exchange our thinking about something. And and if you don't have that language, you don't have and those words actually come from those environments as

00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Well, they come from those cultures so If you don't have those as your primary ingredient.

00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:35.000 You've got to reach pretty deeply to get those intersections even represented in any way that someone who doesn't come from those cultures would even recognize It's like I I sat very briefly looking at a blade of grass

00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:43.000 and a little patch of grass the other day and i'm, thinking, Well, this is constructed itself from an environmental point of view. it's it's a piece of my lawn.

00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:56.000 I wait a long time for an ant to go walking across it because it's not not a natural environment and that's that might be the only bit of nature that I in my life in China, because I've had this conversation with students in my

00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:00.000 household. They don't have trees in their village they might not even have grass.

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:15.000 They'd be lucky, to have a plant so how can you have organic thoughts when you don't have those things in your immediate environment where you grew up. and so you're you're asking people to to reach really deeply

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:26.000 to bringing concepts that they can't have in their day-to-day life, because they don't have you know the trees in the grass and the animals and the insects and such all interacting around you you don't

00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:32.000 have a model. Your language doesn't even remotely reference it See?

00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:37.000 Go a long way before you can actually take something that happened in the past.

00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:48.000 That's where those languages came from. if we can have a turtle rail you've got to have turtles, you know, and and I do. I can't say that it should help me.

00:49:48.000 --> 00:50:01.000 Anyway. it turned around this important in Canadian probably in in Melanie. Good child's world! it's It's what her mission is.

00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:10.000 She takes it around with her to remind her. of a country But if you don't have turtles and a total rattle is something that you can't even talk and think about.

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:17.000 How do you get to that point where you can say this is my thing that I carry around that's my mission in the world?

00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:24.000 Wow! how long? How many exchanges do you need to have to even get to that starting point?

00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:30.000 How do you exchange from another world without going through another language? Pete?

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:45.000 You know you're your point that you made about Wikipedia, and how you could have everybody having their own pages and talking about things in their own languages versus everyone doing it in English, or French, or German how much do

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:50.000 we lose by having those filters at the beginning, and even turning it into language.

00:50:50.000 --> 00:51:00.000 You lose an awful lot of the richness of things over time. The materiality of where those words came from is really

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:07.000 It's a root of language, you know the the birds and the things you were around are where those words came from.

00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:15.000 So we're so distant from the environment that these ideas even came from, and the ways that we can describe them so into Frank.

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:28.000 But I think it's really important languages huge and it's turning up in these yans

00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:38.000 Yeah, it seems that this depository of ways to understand the world is best expressed in relations.

00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:45.000 Because religions form the filters, so we understand the reality around us.

00:51:45.000 --> 00:52:02.000 And then it was becoming really obvious When the Europeans started to venture out into the world and encountered different cultures who have developed belief systems that guided their actions in completely different ways.

00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.000 I mean the Chinese, for example, the invented gunpowder.

00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:16.000 Long before the Europeans did, but they never used it for war? because they thought it was just way to poodle and to destructive to be used in warfare. Where's the European mind?

00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:27.000 Said was, we got into the toy no and and let's let's let's use that to to become more important in warfare.

00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:35.000 So. So what? what was the European mindset, now that that that was so different from other cultures?

00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:40.000 Who couldn't fathom to create so much violence and destruction.

00:52:40.000 --> 00:53:01.000 So. So I I think, understanding the the belief systems they they all the way back into you know the oldest recorded Scriptures really helps to understand why by people's not act and react in the ways they do in and

00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:14.000 claim not the claim, the right to take over this land or to annihilate these people, or to to take dominion over over other cultures.

00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:27.000 The harm. So so the the and and when we look at the intellectual capacity for the particular year in the first chapter.

00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:38.000 And now the Americans, where intellectually the equals culturally the equals of of Europeans in some ways even superior.

00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:57.000 But they didn't translate that into tool making and I think 1 one phenomena is that some cultures engage in toolmaking, and in in advancing

00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:06.000 They they, they their means of of building. You know the physical structures building weapons of war.

00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:21.000 Just has been has been guided differently you know So it's it's it's that innate understanding of how the world is organized That was expressed in religion complete mythology.

00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:25.000 You know that that impolates people to do things I I you know.

00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:41.000 So, Anyway, i'll leave it. there. i'm just gonna say with regard to length, I had a huna teacher who said, You know, if you have a word for it, you have a you have a concept, right and but I I

00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:46.000 was thinking when I was on Bali. you know Bali as an island is just filled with beauty.

00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:50.000 That's that's human created and yet they have no word for art.

00:54:50.000 --> 00:55:01.000 It doesn't occur to them to name. what they do as art So that's an interesting little paradoxical way of being in the world. and i'm not sure it costs that it comes down to religions I mean I

00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:07.000 think a lot of indigenous peoples don't really have religion, as we would recognize it in the West.

00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:11.000 Some do. but I think there's also a lot of other ways of approaching things.

00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:21.000 So Certainly religion is a major interpretive filter for the world, but it tends in in the West to be especially these days.

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:29.000 Monolithic, monotheistic and you know if you look at before the rise of monotheism.

00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:39.000 There's a lot of indigenous cultures that do indeed have a Creator God, but they never propitiate that period of God unless they're at the end of their complete rope, because, like that, God has moved on

00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000 he's creating the rest of the universe we need to pray to the local gods.

00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:55.000 We need to. We just talk to the trees. We need to talk to the rocks, you know, and in that sense there was a sense of sacredness about the land being alive and other things being wise that we often do not ascribe

00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:01.000 in in Western civilization. But there wasn't a worship per se and I think that's a really big difference in the religion.

00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:11.000 So it's a that's a whole huge conversation have But I just wanted to throw that that alternate view in there, because I I think religion can get us into a lot of trouble if if that's the only ones

00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:17.000 we're looking through and you know so I'll just i'll leave it there.

00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:28.000 Yeah build building on that, And and and also what the Klaus and Wendy said before, a lot has to do with worldview the David Z.

00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:46.000 Are, are very clear about their view of that. They they said towards the end of the chapter one of the reasons that we are still the under the spell of this false paradigm is that Rousseau was able to explain it

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:52.000 in a way that eighteenth century French intellectuals and so long goers could understand it.

00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:58.000 And then the intellectuals were too lazy to actually think it through.

00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:15.000 And he says in another part of the chapter I haven't here on paid 66 there's really only one major difference between the way Russell full thought about these things, and the way can they are wrong.

00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:26.000 The uran when that thought about it was that kandiary could visualize both worldviews.

00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:37.000 His own peoples and the European; whereas Rousseau cannot really envision society being based on anything else than the way Europeans think.

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:53.000 And I think that's a very telling point is the the context of the culture you're thinking of, and obviously the the the the forest people of of North America.

00:57:53.000 --> 00:58:02.000 The the The first. Americans had a much broader context than even the French philosophers and and salon.

00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:16.000 The conversation lists,

00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:20.000 I just do something in the chat one of the things that really struck me was, I don't know because i'm listening.

00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:26.000 I don't know how to spell the guy's name but Kandya rank talked about money. Why would I ever touch money?

00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:31.000 I mean, if you gave it to me, Why, would I give it to the first person that is starving, you know.

00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:35.000 And So i'm just curious what other people thought about that cause I found myself going.

00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:45.000 I can now see why Grab is an anarchist and i'm starting to drift into the

00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:55.000 Are we good? how's no mark in one hi hi I Find it very interesting.

00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:59.000 The question of anarchy? I mean that's the That's one big question: Where do I stand in a rank?

00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:06.000 I mean a big part of me is very attracted to anything that gets us away from power.

00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:21.000 Indonesia. On the other hand, not part of me is Well, we want to avoid the kind of environmental damage that means regulations.

00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:26.000 That means taking This is the collective action, and collective action means collected.

00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:33.000 The decision. the one thing that was really fascinating overall in the Don.

00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:44.000 If everything book is how he says you know it's really important that there's a margin, so that you can have a group deciding collectively, we're doing this and people who don't want it having elsewhere.

00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:47.000 To go, so they don't have to sabotage if they disagree.

00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:51.000 They can just go elsewhere and do their own thing. Of course, if their own thing.

00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:56.000 And this is where you got into the it's like the limits How do you tolerate intolerance?

00:59:56.000 --> 01:00:03.000 If this other thing is conquering people enforcing them to do your will.

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:10.000 You're in trouble. but but certainly the I and or if the other thing is, for example, we have all the debate now about.

01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:14.000 Do you engineering? I think Joe, engineering is a very bad idea.

01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:20.000 Some people have the means to just do it. And so this calls for the question of enforcement.

01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:27.000 So, My, the contrast between my idea of we need enforcement against, you know.

01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Dangerous single person's action of course they're dangerous because they have so much power.

01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:37.000 So, and they got so much power because of accumulation and that were, in the first place.

01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:49.000 So So the the basic problem is still power. but the the need for collected action versus the need for avoiding powered relationship.

01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:54.000 I haven't solved the anarchy versus regulation couldn't run for myself.

01:00:54.000 --> 01:01:11.000 It's it's a complex problem certainly what i'm working for is enabling better consensus making so that we can have the best of both worlds But that's idealistic There will always be people

01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:17.000 disagreement. there'll always be people in I I passed around a totally unrelated article.

01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:26.000 In another circle about the mistake versus conflict theory.

01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:37.000 People who think that the main problem is people are making other people are making mistakes, and if they knew better or understood better, we did agree.

01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:44.000 And people who think in conflict terms I think you know these people are enemies, and we need to have power over them.

01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:52.000 And and that's what was really interesting. is both the extreme right and extreme left are thinking purely in terms of conflict, whether it's class conflict or race conflict.

01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:57.000 But it's conflict whereas the middle thinks in terms of better systems.

01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:09.000 And how can we fix the mistakes? And again, this is from an our key versus

01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:19.000 Regulation regulation is totally within the theory of mistakes, framework, and again, probably both apply.

01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:27.000 There! there is such a thing as conflict, and there is such a thing as mistakes, and we need to address both causes of disagreement.

01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:49.000 If we are to, for the greater good whether the greater good is agreed upon regulation or possibility of this sent, both are probably necessary again. So So yeah, I guess i'm a pluralist on the question of anarchism also

01:02:49.000 --> 01:03:03.000 it's it's those are big questions

01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:29.000 This on on a more more Monday note I I really was struck by the way, Kandi Iran's conversations with to get understand Montana was, were.

01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:49.000 I I was very curious to know whether the arguments of so to found you wrong, that the David's presented were his best, because they really seemed so.

01:03:49.000 --> 01:04:11.000 Week, you know, like the way that wisdom saying you know if of European society is that Oh, if we blew this up, then you know the upper classes would suffer which I can't imagine as a rational

01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:37.000 person's best defense of the existing society in Europe you know, maybe wonder whether the David's were leaving out better arguments that were made, or whether, in fact, as they as they said, the European excuse for

01:04:37.000 --> 01:04:57.000 Kandi around superior argument. was that he was setup as a way for for an argument that was untenable to be made by a European to be made.

01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:01.000 I don't know if i'm being clear but you you know the the .

01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:06.000 Presenting a weak argument as Roman. It was the known tactic at the time very much.

01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:14.000 You could pretend to make a false argument to defend yourself against, because the king could totally be head you.

01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:21.000 So you make you make the week argument, and and that's what the David's were saying.

01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:42.000 You know everybody has always assumed that that's what aaria was, and that's what these other examples that they cite of sort of you know, noble savage, and and you know that this really wasn't an argument

01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:50.000 for American indigenous outlook on, on, on European more wars.

01:05:50.000 --> 01:06:00.000 But yeah, I I just. I just wonder if

01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:21.000 If this is attributable to a week, you know to truly a weak argument against Kondy wrong as presented in the book, or whether the David's are are so intent on having to do rocks you know position be clearly

01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:32.000 superior that they're not presenting the best of what was responded that book which you know i'm not reading.

01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:36.000 Of course, and we're all relying on their account of them.

01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:40.000 I I have a friend who actually knows that er very well.

01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:58.000 I could ask the question I doubt like i'm sure they were weak arguments in la again by design, because that's a way for for allow it now to present the controversial Id and avoid push back i'm also

01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:15.000 sure that there are arguments i'm sure there's more arguments in what we saw, because but I I remember an argument I heard about, for against the democracy in those days that makes no sense to us and it's

01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:31.000 the kind of argument that if I were the david's I would not repeat, because it's so obviously nonsensical to us, but it made sense to them at a time, if you do vote you're kind of biasing against the

01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:38.000 dead, the dead should have a voice, and would have of course preferred whatever was there in their time.

01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:54.000 So there's a conservative bias of the dead. that your this regarding unjustly by doing a vote with only the people alive for rats that's obviously absurd.

01:07:54.000 --> 01:08:04.000 But in the in the time this was a rational argument to make a Greek historian, Pilotius has a thought that's helpful. here.

01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:23.000 He says that the shift from autocracy to democracy deterrence, and back through the cycle depends upon circumstances, and that the problems that a society faces, for example, internal distribution are best handled by democracy, But

01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:33.000 if you have external conflicts that are threatening the State, democracy is terrible, because at least the factions and divides the energy.

01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:48.000 So the idea that the form of the government fits the conditions under which people are living seems to me like very rough idea, and one of the things you get in the Grayberg is, for example, how the political structure can shift with the

01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:53.000 seasons. so it can be hierarchical and winter, when everybody's living together.

01:08:53.000 --> 01:08:59.000 Then the spring comes and everybody separates out and it's small groups that are much more regalitarian.

01:08:59.000 --> 01:09:05.000 I think it's quite beautiful

01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:09.000 Quickly before class goes. This was explicitly done in the Roman Republic.

01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:18.000 When that's before it was an empire the robot had Senate chambers, and political assembly wasn't the lead political assembly.

01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:22.000 But it was a political assembly, but when there was an external enemy.

01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:37.000 You name a tyrant that a general temporary ruler to take care of the military emergency and that person gets the pose after that. and that's perfectly And it was done sorry.

01:09:37.000 --> 01:10:02.000 But the guys are queuing. Is that cultures swing back and forth between, similar to what that was just saying between a sensate materialistic culture and then an ideational and spiritual culture and very much driven by

01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:17.000 circumstances and and and realities that I imposed onto the call show that that's you know a running out of supplies running out of food, money getting into wars. and so on.

01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:25.000 And then there is a third form which is the integral idealistic culture which combines both together.

01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:33.000 And so he's arguing the best and cultural history has been in gay, has been a sensate materialistic culture.

01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:52.000 For quite some time, and probably got gotten us through the entire of European expansion, you know, into dominating indigenous cultures around the world. I mean from South America and North America, India, Asia, you know China, and you think about

01:10:52.000 --> 01:11:12.000 it. but He's arguing that the the transition from form to another is typically is typically turning into a crisis to become that it is marked by conflict by voice and and and power shifts that

01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:19.000 are that are precipitating a question now between between power plots.

01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:29.000 So it. I mean. this has been written quite a while ago, is obviously no no real, discernible timeline here, but it does seem to make sense.

01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:40.000 It does seem to to shift in in in ways that the Cultural Revolution was also maybe not precipitated by the combination Right?

01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:48.000 I mean the Reformation was, a very traffic shift in mindsets into European culture.

01:11:48.000 --> 01:11:58.000 Where the Biblical story was being turned. You know into what is the true idea and purpose of the New Testament?

01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:03.000 What is the going back to? You know the principles of that level of teaching?

01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:33.000 So I I I can see that now that we are in a crisis of transition, where we are shifting our mindsets into into forms that challenge existing power structures and precipitate companies

01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:59.000 I like this group. it's a lot slower than last week

01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:17.000 To my question to this group, because we're going to be summarizing all of this pretty soon is if we need our environment to create a context for us to practice power shifts in a way that isn't destructive how can

01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:23.000 we create that sort of context for learning how to have different forms of power.

01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:29.000 It seems to me that we're jumping you know Ukraine is an example.

01:13:29.000 --> 01:13:41.000 You know, somebody wanted something and so now was a big shift locally, because somebody wanted something, and they could reach out with power to get it.

01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:46.000 And someone fought back

01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:51.000 And now that was, I guess, a form of seasonality of shift.

01:13:51.000 --> 01:14:10.000 You can see patterns. in the locality. but there's lots of little versions of that that people don't seem to be able to learn from It's not war. but it's a localized version of that I feel that we need to

01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:19.000 practice all this stuff before it gets to a critical point so we've got other ways of arranging our behaviors.

01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:25.000 Now that we can play on such big grand scales, and the Davis do actually make that point.

01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:30.000 A lot of people make that point, you know. Now we can play at very big scales.

01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:38.000 A little skirmishes in a family, No locality around resources.

01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:55.000 We can pretend that they don't scale but They sort of do when somebody can push a big button somewhere.

01:14:55.000 --> 01:14:59.000 I feel like i'm not definitely not an expert in this field in any way.

01:14:59.000 --> 01:15:15.000 And there's a lot more people in this zoom room a a lot more to say, but it's what's coming up for me as a question around that comes from the chapter 2 about the nature of discourse in providing

01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:28.000 the environment right it's not looking for a particular outcome it's not assuming that the power structure there's one power structure in the room, and they'll politely listen to everybody else.

01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:33.000 And then the power the person in power will make the decision and Everybody goes on the merry way, and has to deal with it.

01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:50.000 It's it's assuming that conversation will continue until an agreed upon Answers reached, and and that it's not even like There's an endpoint assume that we the conversation continues every single day and every single day we come

01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:55.000 to little decisions along the way, and that gently shifts it's not one.

01:15:55.000 --> 01:16:10.000 Again. it's not something swooping in which ends up, looking like a crisis in the and the from the outside in oh, some crisis precipitated a change which which I think we land on because our systems aren't flexible enough

01:16:10.000 --> 01:16:26.000 to adjust for all this or that, for any message any softer messages that come at the system right now are forced to scream, yell cry, you know, argue or create war in order for something to change.

01:16:26.000 --> 01:16:31.000 And i'm going extreme here. but i'm just saying like that I really liked the concept around.

01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:39.000 If there was constant discourse and constant argument around where should we go next? and what's emerging for our community?

01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:43.000 And where do we want to take that? And what decision does that make for all peoples at all levels?

01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:49.000 And that conversation continued on, and was automatically assumed would include the voices from all the people at all the level.

01:16:49.000 --> 01:17:00.000 I mean it just is completely different way of looking at it. and I think in in its best form, which I don't not sure was always presented in the digits cultures, but lots of them did have a really good form.

01:17:00.000 --> 01:17:14.000 Of it seems like, from the but way the book presented it, that would would help a lot towards making these shifts over long period, longer periods of time, and more gracefully.

01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:17.000 One of the things I was struck by. Sorry, Mark. I just want to go ahead.

01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:26.000 Sorry just quickly I do a a book was just brought to my attention.

01:17:26.000 --> 01:17:32.000 It's called the quiet before on the inexpected origin of radical ideas, and it's about precisely this whole.

01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:43.000 How ideas arise in conversations. And, he gives a lot of political examples of how you know all the shifting discourse before the revolution happens.

01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:50.000 So the slow buildup. So you were speaking about the slow, not necessarily ending versus the cut.

01:17:50.000 --> 01:18:00.000 This is about the progression of the slow before the cut so i'll put the

01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:06.000 Pete to join. Go I wanted to head us towards wrapping up.

01:18:06.000 --> 01:18:16.000 So you should go, Ken. All right. I just gonna quickly say I threw a couple of I I have a whole bunch of things bookmark that I have to transcribe into into quotes which I will do to put

01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:29.000 into the hack Md. notes, but one of those was about the idea of baseline communism from each according to their abilities to each according to their needs, and he gives the example of you know if if someone's asking for some help

01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:32.000 and it's easy to do like they're drowning and all you have to do is from a rope.

01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:43.000 Any decent person would would do that, and that the woodland societies of North America at the time that the Europeans were arriving here, they guaranteed an autonomous life to everybody.

01:18:43.000 --> 01:18:54.000 Now the women owned and worked the land, but but really distributed the the fruits, and the men went out and did the hunting and freely distributed the The you know the harvest from the from the hunts as well and

01:18:54.000 --> 01:19:03.000 it seems to me that the question about social interaction really goes to the heart of so many of our problems.

01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:08.000 You know. Is there a group that is more deserving than others?

01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:19.000 And if so, that means there's groups that aren't deserving, and so they can be laying on the street in their own vomit, you know, and excrement and you can walk right back and say I don't have

01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:27.000 anything to do with that. that's not part of me you know but I personally have a very strong and negative reaction to that.

01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:41.000 And i'm really curious of you know what would it take and this goes to the heart of causes point about religion because a lot of religions say we're the ones you know those other people the infidels.

01:19:41.000 --> 01:19:54.000 You know they don't deserve to live so that's a very dangerous Meta narrative that those other people aren't deserving, and it seems to me if we're going to get through the next 100 years, and be

01:19:54.000 --> 01:20:07.000 a species, a 100 years, or a 1,000, or 10,000, or 50,000 years from now we really have to come to grips with who gets the chance to live, who gets what they need in order to be taken care of and the the

01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:12.000 walls are closing in. you know we're headed for I'm looking at hey?

01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:15.000 The hanks background. The I needle there you know we're we're coming up on that.

01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:21.000 And how can we bring as many people through that? I think it was possible.

01:20:21.000 --> 01:20:36.000 So when we come out the other side, they have the the necessary elements to live a dignified life that allows them to make a contribution instead of being so marginalized that they're always you know at risk of being

01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:43.000 genocide cost. I think you should go close first.

01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:49.000 Yeah, I I was just thinking that Jerry made a a comment when he talked about trust.

01:20:49.000 --> 01:21:02.000 He he published a response somewhere, and and and in that response he linked to a small video that he was shooting about the need to trust.

01:21:02.000 --> 01:21:08.000 And he made a really Cute comment in there when he was saying, you know I'm i'm looking at science I'm reading Science Fiction.

01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:23.000 So my desire to be one of the first to go into other space is rather small, because when you read science fiction, we have the same raw emotions and conflicts and fights that we have here.

01:21:23.000 --> 01:21:29.000 On earth. So why would I go on in other space under more so complicated circumstances? Yeah.

01:21:29.000 --> 01:21:39.000 So today is very little optimism, let's put it this way right

01:21:39.000 --> 01:21:54.000 Let me just build on what ken was saying in the eye of the needle that's the whole final discussion in the chapter is that nobody has yet satisfactorily defined.

01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:58.000 What does this question of equal or unequal mean?

01:21:58.000 --> 01:22:10.000 Does it mean equal opportunity, equal on the zoom equal access to whatever equal, equally free from the threat of whatever?

01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:23.000 And I think if we're talking about big questions that Certainly would be question for our discussion, since it is the big question in in this chapter and and in the book, what what does that actually mean?

01:22:23.000 --> 01:22:34.000 I mean, we're from many different sub cultures of a Western culture here in this call, and we probably share a lot of ideas.

01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:39.000 But are probably not even I'm. not even sure that we all agree on the same idea.

01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:52.000 So that's a big question I think is worth covering thanks Hank, and maybe that's kind of a good place to start to wrap

01:22:52.000 --> 01:23:00.000 Let's end on time. and so we'll just do a quick retro, I think. and i'm going to share my screen share.

01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:12.000 The Hackham d at least i'm just finishing up, adding, adding, Hank's question to the big question section and we did it.

01:23:12.000 --> 01:23:16.000 We collected a lot of material from the meeting. So thank you.

01:23:16.000 --> 01:23:29.000 Folks so what well on this call

01:23:29.000 --> 01:23:36.000 It was silences, so that meant that we could sort of reconfigure the direction we were taking.

01:23:36.000 --> 01:23:47.000 That there was a sort of considered pace

01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:57.000 What else I like. The variety of ideas that okay came up, and we didn't get to go into depth on all of them.

01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:12.000 But a lot of interesting ideas were were broached, and interesting resources given for for looking up in the in the next days.

01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:22.000 And what else I like that We got a chance to talk about the criticisms that I posted from.

01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:33.000 I don't, know who wrote them but 2 different reviews of the book that gave some criticism, and I I agree strongly with market one, that although they're valid criticisms, they don't really detract, from

01:24:33.000 --> 01:24:49.000 the overall thrust of the book. there's still a lot of really good stuff there, and I was found myself much more informed by reading those cruises, especially the second one

01:24:49.000 --> 01:24:57.000 What would we do differently next time

01:24:57.000 --> 01:25:08.000 Maybe less shorter introduction of all the different websites, and how they interact with each other.

01:25:08.000 --> 01:25:17.000 And just give us the links, and they seem to be able until we have enough.

01:25:17.000 --> 01:25:23.000 You can sign up and learn how to do them

01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:39.000 Thanks. Think I I want i'm pretty sure they're not into it enough to use no i'm i'm pretty i'm pretty illiterate, but I could sign up to hack md and and

01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:44.000 hypothesis while we were talking. If I could do it, I think anyone can.

01:25:44.000 --> 01:25:58.000 No sorry. , Oh, go ahead . no Sorry I I I think, going in depth on the side structure on the fly.

01:25:58.000 --> 01:26:03.000 This should have been prepared a bit in advance, so we could have had a shorter thing.

01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:15.000 Sorry it It was important. but the maybe we should have It could have also been scheduled separately.

01:26:15.000 --> 01:26:20.000 It didn't have to be I I meant for just a minute, you know.

01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:22.000 A few minutes it got away from me. I apologize.

01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:28.000 And I think we we pushed it. I mean, you know Wendy had the question.

01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:36.000 Then we Kirsten prodded as it started,

01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:40.000 Yeah, What's the detail I mean the conversation picked up after that?

01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:43.000 . it did go well overall that's That's a .

01:26:43.000 --> 01:27:00.000 I was just just a a sort of wish I wish i'd known I I was torn when I showed up in the people were talking about criticisms that had been posted I hadn't caught that and you know was prepared to talk

01:27:00.000 --> 01:27:07.000 about the chapter, but was only prepared to listen to the critical do about that.

01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:13.000 But you know just so. all the on the same page, you know.

01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:22.000 I felt I felt unprepared. Is there a a place where you would have so an an obvious place?

01:27:22.000 --> 01:27:27.000 For that is the agenda I I think we don't have a practice of really checking what the agenda is before we get there.

01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:37.000 . we're for feeding the agenda I also think there's an agenda iium around epistemology, too, that we're just going to keep on every book that we look at.

01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:44.000 We're going to be looking at how we actually privilege certain views over others.

01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:49.000 So I don't know Mac into one I think and others would have potentially similar views.

01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:53.000 We're going to come back to the how do we know what we know.

01:27:53.000 --> 01:28:09.000 Question often, And is that a valid way of knowing epistemology is, and then that you know if you can't escape it, every single book will have dig questions around this no matter which book it is no matter what artifacts you're looking

01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:17.000 at and peps out. big questions will reflect a lot of those, and we can make a little efficiency by dealing with those.

01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:19.000 Perhaps in another place. they'll create dust of their own.

01:28:19.000 --> 01:28:23.000 But you know, at least we can say this much, and not that.

01:28:23.000 --> 01:28:32.000 Yes, let's head it out to davis sure anything else super important.

01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:43.000 I wanna make sure we wrap easily. on time I I have one actually. I've i've committed a fault with our retros.

01:28:43.000 --> 01:28:51.000 Actually, we should have more more overhead. We should have examined the retros from last meeting.

01:28:51.000 --> 01:28:56.000 Maybe not in this meeting, maybe in a prep. meeting for this meeting, or something like that.

01:28:56.000 --> 01:29:05.000 But One of the principles of retrospectives or one of the one of the failure Most retrospectives is the facilitator goes.

01:29:05.000 --> 01:29:10.000 Okay, let's do a retro and then you accumulate a lot of stuff, and then it gets filed, and it disappears.

01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:20.000 So a real retro is for the benefit of the group it's not for the benefit of the facilitator, making sure that she or she's got a a book full of stuff.

01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:29.000 So somehow I would like to fold in digesting and composting the retro from the previous meeting.

01:29:29.000 --> 01:29:36.000 Probably before the next meeting. and maybe that's a offline thing, not not in the meeting itself.

01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:55.000 I don't know if this is crazy thought but but the idea of in the off weeks, you know, having, you know, a half hour session digest and and also generate the agenda so that people have

01:29:55.000 --> 01:30:03.000 a week to check the agenda and realize if there's something else to read or or whatever.

01:30:03.000 --> 01:30:09.000 No, maybe not. all of us could make that the little artifact and keep the meetings self-care.

01:30:09.000 --> 01:30:16.000 For I I like that as much as I don't like it I like it.

01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:23.000 What the book ? is important. Am I on mute?

01:30:23.000 --> 01:30:30.000 Yeah, I am I would have liked to stay a little closer to the text.

01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:43.000 I don't know how to do that cause I also like the texture of the ideas that get stirred up in people, but I think the balance was off from me makes sense.

01:30:43.000 --> 01:30:50.000 I've i've got that feeling too, I I echo that, and and yet, on the other hand, I wouldn't have given up any of them.

01:30:50.000 --> 01:31:01.000 The content conversation we had. So I I I feel a real tension about time like there's none enough time

01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:11.000 Actually I think I have to run i'm sorry hi it's good to see you.

01:31:11.000 --> 01:31:24.000 I think one of the tensions is me personally i'm always tempted to go to the big picture and the talking about the book as a whole rather than one chapter.

01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:30.000 But and I do want to speak about the one chapter but it's for me.

01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:38.000 Things make sense in context. And so I tempted always to see this one chapter in the broader context of the book as a whole.

01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:47.000 And this runs stuff into something too big. And I wonder if we should kind of alternate close readings.

01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:54.000 And yeah, what comes down of the close reading and seeing it in the broader context.

01:31:54.000 --> 01:32:00.000 But actually devote time to the close reading, because I do agree that this needs to be done also.

01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:10.000 Hmm in this meeting or maybe one every other meeting something like that.

01:32:10.000 --> 01:32:16.000 I don't know what's the but but I think we need time for close readings, and we need time for expanding.

01:32:16.000 --> 01:32:27.000 . Yeah, Hmm, pete I just wanna say one thing when you said, You know time's always an issue or there's a number of time to I've i've found a facilitator or if you point

01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:46.000 people's attention. there's not enough time to go we have 90 min, and within that 90 min we have a lot of ways that we can fill that and let's sense into what makes the the most since for us as a group

01:32:46.000 --> 01:32:49.000 today to make that happen so that we can. We can. you know we can.

01:32:49.000 --> 01:32:54.000 We can fill the time really productively without having to rush through it.

01:32:54.000 --> 01:33:02.000 And I just i'm always wary when people say there's not enough time, because i've told myself that's free a lot, and I've really been working with it to say you know there is enough time and and

01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:09.000 There's not a time to do. Everything but there's enough time to do what I want most of what I want.

01:33:09.000 --> 01:33:13.000 I certainly don't know time to Read everything I wanna run I I want that's for sure.

01:33:13.000 --> 01:33:20.000 But just playing with time. Thanks, Ken

01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:28.000 Oh, i'm sorry I didn't realize my hand Was for gratitude.

01:33:28.000 --> 01:33:34.000 I'm so happy to have people to talk to about this book because it's I mentioned yesterday to a friend of mine.

01:33:34.000 --> 01:33:40.000 I feel like my brain is getting changing every day. I Read this, and soundtock and a couple of other things, and like constantly go.

01:33:40.000 --> 01:33:48.000 Oh, that's new and connections and it's So good to have people to talk with about this, Thank you all.

01:33:48.000 --> 01:34:03.000 Yeah, thanks. Michael. Just another thought which which I think was happening in not our most chat without me noticing as much, but and more formal sense.

01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:12.000 And maybe it is in that off week agenda setting like each of us comes, and maybe this takes the place of the check in.

01:34:12.000 --> 01:34:20.000 I don't know with with thing that we'd like to be a discussion issue.

01:34:20.000 --> 01:34:33.000 So that, and and and and possibly have that. You know, Martin want us to talk about this when he was talking about that. You know other Wendy wants to talk about that.

01:34:33.000 --> 01:34:45.000 You know that that we go into it with an knowledge of having you know 6 or 7 points to cover I like that, and i'd like to feed that into

01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:57.000 The the agenda actually yeah when we just set let's put that into our Wendy Maclean distinguished between Wendy's here.

01:34:57.000 --> 01:35:00.000 But yeah, putting that in the check-in of here's what I let's talk about today.

01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:06.000 It's on my mind that would be an awesome way to start, I think, and we haven't really done check-ins on the 2 calls.

01:35:06.000 --> 01:35:18.000 I've been part of so maybe that was a good way to keep our check-ins focused and laser like hmm just just on wendy's, or just on the idea of having this

01:35:18.000 --> 01:35:27.000 light focus. What i'm noticing in the yans that Dave Snowden and Tyson and other indigenous thinkers are having.

01:35:27.000 --> 01:35:32.000 Is It's actually the intersection between all our influences where the new stuff actually turns up?

01:35:32.000 --> 01:35:44.000 It's really important. 2 in some ways just just visit lightly the agenda that you've said, and just allow it to do something quite emergent.

01:35:44.000 --> 01:35:54.000 Because that's that's really really important and and it's. funny when you do this, and I haven't done the text analytics over the 4 that i've got my hands on but I probably would run as a

01:35:54.000 --> 01:36:00.000 few people on the planet who is really close to 4 yans involving this type of thinking.

01:36:00.000 --> 01:36:16.000 And there's actually more in common than you think between them But it's only if you've looked at those really closely, you know I've been involved, not as as a creator as an observer, so something about that

01:36:16.000 --> 01:36:25.000 and not forcing it to be a particular agenda, is quite important

01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:30.000 One last question: How did Hackham do you work for folks?

01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:35.000 I feel like a a little fewer. people felt like they could participate.

01:36:35.000 --> 01:36:41.000 If they were in, Would you have participated in Google docs if it wasn't Hackham D.

01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:49.000 Or is that can be okay?

01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:59.000 My personal feeling is that, having the the other media running alongside is a distraction.

01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:09.000 The the 2 pains, you mean, or running relationship to talking about the book?

01:37:09.000 --> 01:37:12.000 So notes in general are distracting from the actual talk.

01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:20.000 Yeah, but i'm an old guy you know I feel the

01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:33.000 I I had a pretty acute feeling this time. I can do a better job of taking notes when everybody can see the notes and and chip in a little bit, and you know watch me as I need to fill something in Then they can

01:37:33.000 --> 01:37:40.000 help. and so the notes are less rich than they could have been if we were if i'd been screen sharing it.

01:37:40.000 --> 01:37:52.000 But but on the flip side of it we got a little bit more conversation, and let me tell you a little more about to me it's like listening to music. If you're listening to a symphony, and you had other pieces of other music playing

01:37:52.000 --> 01:38:05.000 alongside it would be very distracting I think, of a conversation as a kind of performance, and what's important is not the facts that are in it.

01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:18.000 But the tone, what's what's the overall feeling for life, that this text represents

01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:22.000 And and in an example of the reason I like notes.

01:38:22.000 --> 01:38:30.000 That that right there. what's the overall feeling for life that this text represents, because i've got enough tech going on.

01:38:30.000 --> 01:38:34.000 I can capture that and put that in and out. so otherwise it would have just like vanished.

01:38:34.000 --> 01:38:41.000 Yeah, it's tough for me I appreciate I appreciate both I mean i'm with Doug.

01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:45.000 I like to. i'm a mono focuser when I have too many things distracted me.

01:38:45.000 --> 01:38:50.000 Every time a ping comes in i've got an email. I mean it derails my focus of concentration.

01:38:50.000 --> 01:39:00.000 And yet I've really come to your appreciate pete's agility at tracking a conversation going off getting links, posting them, taking notes.

01:39:00.000 --> 01:39:11.000 I mean it's it's a skill that I simply don't have, and i'm grateful that it's there and it. But today I was more focused on listening than I was on on putting stuff in last week I put a bunch

01:39:11.000 --> 01:39:14.000 of stuff up in the in the or twoiscope puts much stuff in.

01:39:14.000 --> 01:39:23.000 So say I just wasn't I didn't my focus there so it'll be back and forth for me and I don't know if that helps you at all. but that's just you know i'm kind of a straddling

01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:32.000 the the river here. Thanks. I have a feeling for what everybody thinks about the book except for Pete.

01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:39.000 Yeah, very true. Yeah. I didn't get to participate .

01:39:39.000 --> 01:39:52.000 Very true I I have a lot of I it it's a great value to me that we have artifacts that stay around that you know i'll be able to read in 6 months, and a year, or 2 years,

01:39:52.000 --> 01:39:56.000 and that other people will be able to read so it's.

01:39:56.000 --> 01:40:04.000 It's highly valuable for me to make sure that we capture stuff in a way that is going to be accessible.

01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:12.000 For you know now and into the future. I know that comes at a at a big trade-off for being in the moment.

01:40:12.000 --> 01:40:25.000 Well, maybe we could. You could say I would like to contribute now, and pass off the home to one or 3 or 5 other people who would be willing to take, not so much so that you get an opportunity, because I I know I

01:40:25.000 --> 01:40:34.000 know you, Pete, and you obviously have a lot going on in that and i'd love to hear how you're you know, responding to non of everything.

01:40:34.000 --> 01:40:41.000 Yeah, Yeah, that's that's a great suggestion Personally, I am pretty good at the double or or triple focusing.

01:40:41.000 --> 01:40:47.000 So I keep switching back to see where the notes are being taken.

01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:52.000 And in this call I mean most people were adding notes in the in the Zoom Chat.

01:40:52.000 --> 01:41:07.000 So that's why, I added, my notes but I mean we could just I mean, if it if it bother someone we could just shut off the chat, and then at very end recorded or or save it, and look at it later, so personally,

01:41:07.000 --> 01:41:17.000 i'm happy with the double not taking and i'd certainly. agree with what can just said you're not just the facilitator.

01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:28.000 You're essential to creating a a shared context in in which we can understand what we think.

01:41:28.000 --> 01:41:34.000 Well, thank you. Oh, Michael, I was just gonna say I'm just curious.

01:41:34.000 --> 01:41:42.000 If as opposed to when. so we Google Docs was used last time around.

01:41:42.000 --> 01:41:48.000 And did you take the contents of the Google and put it in a heck end? D.

01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:53.000 Or did you go directly to? I mean I I know this is preferable paper.

01:41:53.000 --> 01:42:10.000 I turn them into markdown and and it's not It's It's hard enough that it's hard enough that it's and the the funny thing is you know it it takes me like maybe like 20 min or something

01:42:10.000 --> 01:42:16.000 like that to get the the Google Doc. 20 min where I don't have to think very much, even it's kind of mechanical.

01:42:16.000 --> 01:42:26.000 But but then getting 20 min to do that for 2 calls from you know from a week means that you know it's it's really hard to get that into my schedule.

01:42:26.000 --> 01:42:37.000 So it's like, Okay, This was stupid this time doing this. Google last thing, you know, might have made it a little bit easier for other people, but it made it so that it was a lot harder for me to to get through it So the

01:42:37.000 --> 01:42:45.000 hack of these literally just save and then it's done that if you know it's harder for people to to be participate.

01:42:45.000 --> 01:43:02.000 Then that's not good either. what I was gonna ask is just whether your participation, you know you you cherry the most weight in the half, and d in a way that we didn't in the Google dots yeah, and if

01:43:02.000 --> 01:43:17.000 that taking you out of the experience of the meeting and your contribution verbally to the meeting where the trade off is there, I guess. if we could, if we could do more of the note taking and what's happening in

01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:25.000 Google dots, and you were ending up like pulling I mean you're still gonna have a bunch of stuff in chat here.

01:43:25.000 --> 01:43:34.000 You know i'm not saying that it's you but i'm de facto i'm sure it was you last week, and maybe we have to do something about that in that off week.

01:43:34.000 --> 01:43:50.000 Thing we do I I don't know how how it gets put together, but just just one wondering if given given the other buckets besides Heck and B. that have to be put into heck and d have to trade off it's worth

01:43:50.000 --> 01:43:57.000 it it's it's a good calculation to go through.

01:43:57.000 --> 01:44:09.000 I have to admit a note impeaches amazing things that the notating stops because he's got to be thinking and processing so often sad them picking.

01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:15.000 That is actually recorded. but it's not recorded as text in the way that Pete very reverently does it for all of us.

01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:21.000 So, even if it's not as eloquent as Pete summaries of our work.

01:44:21.000 --> 01:44:33.000 Even if someone's recording something about what pete says it's at least there for the record, and you know future Peak can go back and just put back part in as you might have done observing himself you know second order

01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:49.000 cybernetics etc. because I think the value that you bring Pete is really extraordinary, and I don't think I feel a little sad that the amazing things that you say because the fluidity that

01:44:49.000 --> 01:44:56.000 you're applying to other people is not necessarily able to be done as a dual processing thing for yourself.

01:44:56.000 --> 01:45:04.000 We should just step in and type whatever Pk needs needs needs quick tidy up.

01:45:04.000 --> 01:45:09.000 So good. Yeah, Yeah, because you know I think you're taking a natural role here.

01:45:09.000 --> 01:45:19.000 But you're also a content contributor and all of us suffer from knopping our to know what we think until we see what we say.

01:45:19.000 --> 01:45:24.000 It's true for every single one of us every now and Then we'll turn up with something that's just like Oh, wow!

01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:33.000 That came out of my neurology directly how did I know to say those words, and it's just beautiful when somebody captures that for us such a gift.

01:45:33.000 --> 01:45:45.000 Yeah, so I like the fact that you could do it i'd feel very sad if we put you in a place where you couldn't do that, that the frustration would come through, and the quality wouldn't be there.

01:45:45.000 --> 01:45:52.000 So we should never take you out of your comfort side

01:45:52.000 --> 01:46:00.000 Very interesting discussion. and to me it's the choice between his lives to be lived like a museum or like a performance.

01:46:00.000 --> 01:46:08.000 Yeah, , one of the things about indigenous people is they're very performance oriented. they're in the group, and they listen.

01:46:08.000 --> 01:46:14.000 And that's where the work is done nobody's writing it down.

01:46:14.000 --> 01:46:19.000 And Pete, I I love watching you play around with the technology and all that stuff.

01:46:19.000 --> 01:46:28.000 But at the level of conversation i'm skeptical goes back and looks at those notice anyway.

01:46:28.000 --> 01:46:37.000 I do , and and i'm actually working with Cons i'm working with , live tracks.

01:46:37.000 --> 01:46:45.000 The value that i'm getting from going back and looking at those words, and you can see that where somebody takes something Dave Stone is really guilty of this one of these days.

01:46:45.000 --> 01:46:52.000 I'll take Dave he's got this thing that he wants to do, and it's not respecting the conversation that just took place.

01:46:52.000 --> 01:47:00.000 I can see him do it. I think dave you're breaking rules here in terms of conversations and ideas, and listening to other people.

01:47:00.000 --> 01:47:07.000 And this there's almost like a zone that people get into it about the twenty-minute mark in any transcript in a long form.

01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:21.000 Conversation of 60 to 90 min, and then there's these big cycles that happen where people get into this sort of synergy, and where the exchanges the ideas and the intersectionality actually really starts to turn up and then

01:47:21.000 --> 01:47:26.000 someone closes a loop. it's just real it's amazing to watch.

01:47:26.000 --> 01:47:29.000 But you have to go back to the transcript to see it.

01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:36.000 And you wouldn't see it even in the comments if somebody is observing from the side, I think Pete does do a bit of this.

01:47:36.000 --> 01:47:43.000 He actually finds the peak of one wave and then loops it back, and he might have missed some of the detail in between.

01:47:43.000 --> 01:47:58.000 But if somebody else is surfing another wave that summer will be there somehow without the the transcripts, and without what happens is we move we lose these points with the conversation is divergence.

01:47:58.000 --> 01:48:07.000 Could damage and we sometimes don't come back to it but there's it's like a it's a melody in some ways.

01:48:07.000 --> 01:48:14.000 What's not being spoken about and what has been spoken about, and the spatiality of that is really the dynamicism.

01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:19.000 Doug i'd love to chat with you more about this because it's actually there.

01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:33.000 And it's it there between the conversations as Well, probably there between the 2 sessions in one week as well, and it's people are riffing off the other stuff that's happening in their lives at the same time like

01:48:33.000 --> 01:48:52.000 the sand talks in to me and these books the one that I showed you are becoming animal is one I haven't got into It's like we miss that level of nuance at our cost, because it absolutely exists and everyone's sort of

01:48:52.000 --> 01:48:59.000 saying that something very similar, but we're not catching the wave of what that is.

01:48:59.000 --> 01:49:19.000 , alright, thanks. wendy I there's a lot in there, and I like how deep you you can soak into a recorded conversation essentially a transcript or whatever.

01:49:19.000 --> 01:49:23.000 And I also I have sympathy isn't quite the right word.

01:49:23.000 --> 01:49:40.000 I have I I resonate strongly with Doug you know because, I really like a live musical performance, and closing your eyes and just sticking it, in you know, just experiencing it, and not having to process it,

01:49:40.000 --> 01:49:44.000 intellectually and dissect it, and things like that.

01:49:44.000 --> 01:49:58.000 I I see value both ways. I have to add this. Because when do you trigger this in my in my brain there was a period when I was working at the world Cafe, where some of us would just sit in the room

01:49:58.000 --> 01:50:04.000 and listen to the whole room, and over A period of several cafe is doing this.

01:50:04.000 --> 01:50:18.000 We, we discovered that there is a pattern also in sound in a large cafe, where, during the third round, things would take on a completely different oral tone.

01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:25.000 It was much I don't know how to really describe it but it's like, Okay, Okay, you know, the first 2 rounds were just kind of we're orienting to each other in the third round.

01:50:25.000 --> 01:50:30.000 Now we're really converging on things and we're starting to understand each other.

01:50:30.000 --> 01:50:32.000 But you could actually hear it in the tone of the room.

01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:35.000 We do this with people with with the cafe with over 500 people.

01:50:35.000 --> 01:50:41.000 It's just it's amazing so that I I love that idea cause that to me is a fractal pattern.

01:50:41.000 --> 01:50:45.000 It shows up in a in a zoom call with with looking at the

01:50:45.000 --> 01:50:49.000 The transcript that shows up in a world cafe with 200 people or 500 people.

01:50:49.000 --> 01:50:53.000 And so I think this is actually a pattern we're paying attention to.

01:50:53.000 --> 01:51:09.000 I have some experience in experimenting with this and one of the things that I notice is in a group at about an hour and a half the foot that the folks of the group shifts from the topic it's being discussed as a

01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:23.000 group loop itself to appreciate being in the group it's an emergent phenomena and very powerful

01:51:23.000 --> 01:51:26.000 Ep phenomena, group Ep: phenomena.

01:51:26.000 --> 01:51:31.000 Yeah, and that is actually I don't know the per name person, Pete.

01:51:31.000 --> 01:51:38.000 You could probably help me here. But remember the person that Toulouse been talking about from Ireland.

01:51:38.000 --> 01:51:51.000 I think that there are people who and and it's also a dissonant voice here, too, about understanding when that sort of is singing.

01:51:51.000 --> 01:52:04.000 It's actually a sound thing it's a it's a sound wave pattern, a level of sound going on it's often, and the quality that is actually quite dependent on the spatiality of the place that you're

01:52:04.000 --> 01:52:18.000 in cause. you gotta be able to hear it and and here. people settle into it so that acoustic qualities of a space for meeting absolutely important because some people can't even be in that space because of the acoustics, and

01:52:18.000 --> 01:52:31.000 then the achievement that people have is like bird song. and the the root of language is that we fall into this pattern of exchange, which is a bit like singing at each other.

01:52:31.000 --> 01:52:44.000 And knowing when we could sort of fit in and knowing when we should stand back and let the song sort of go and somebody else's song is more important than our song at that time, and then a sort of cut off in a change so

01:52:44.000 --> 01:52:59.000 anyway. this this guy. There are various people who actually pick that up from an acoustic exchange, sound point of view when they look for those exchanges in the patterns across businesses the patterns within specific conversations within those

01:52:59.000 --> 01:53:14.000 businesses, and if they can find that quality of exchange there, then there's a level of assurance about the type of dialogue, and where that dialogue is taking people as a community, and they're sort

01:53:14.000 --> 01:53:27.000 of worry less about the actual content. But if the exchange is continuing in the right way, then there's an assumption that emergence is happening, and people are in sort of synergy enough, and you don't actually have to

01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:35.000 micromanage. the context, as much because she know that the conversation has reflected the sorts of things that needed to take.

01:53:35.000 --> 01:53:45.000 And it's sort of like you know husband and wife dancing around the kitchen unstacking the dishwasher. it's like we're not going to step on each other because I know where you step and

01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:51.000 then occasionally we have this lot. I wanted to be in that one spot, but somebody dances around, and it all works.

01:53:51.000 --> 01:54:01.000 We do it every time we unstack the dishwasher like I didn't know that I knew that you were gonna stand there, but somehow we negotiated that without words. that I wouldn't.

01:54:01.000 --> 01:54:06.000 Stand where you needed to stand. if I needed to, we could look at each other and renegotiate it.

01:54:06.000 --> 01:54:11.000 And you just map that it's unspoken and it does exist.

01:54:11.000 --> 01:54:23.000 And so in some ways there's something about the mapping of this and the content while it's, is important is less important than the quality of the exchange.

01:54:23.000 --> 01:54:29.000 And then, if you can find that synergy can be less worried about the content and more.

01:54:29.000 --> 01:54:40.000 And I think this happened with early exchanges around indigenous people where people knew that we're talking about the same thing, even though they didn't have the words to talk about it like i'm holding something you're holding something we

01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:45.000 both like that thing don't have the word for your thing you don't have the word for my version of that thing.

01:54:45.000 --> 01:54:55.000 But We're both holding it we both agree that the conversation is about the thing, the material that we are holding you know a good food whatever, and I'm not going to take it out of your hands.

01:54:55.000 --> 01:55:03.000 You're not gonna take it out of my hands we collectively own that thing, and we don't have to name it because it's present in the room.

01:55:03.000 --> 01:55:07.000 But then take the thing being present in the room out of the conversation.

01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:15.000 We then need to have language or the material to exchange over, because we haven't got the thing in the room.

01:55:15.000 --> 01:55:20.000 The people. The materiality of this is so so important, you know.

01:55:20.000 --> 01:55:27.000 We will add you around the thing food which means different to you if we haven't got that thing there, and I can take a button.

01:55:27.000 --> 01:55:38.000 You can take a bite that's a form of negotiation the minute you do that over distance you're left with the words, and you're left with a problem because we can't exchange over the thing so we

01:55:38.000 --> 01:55:43.000 have a fight about it like you crane it's just cause we don't.

01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:47.000 We're not coexisting in the same space we can't have a negotiation around it.

01:55:47.000 --> 01:55:58.000 Why would? And your words are going to end up in some other fights, anyway?

01:55:58.000 --> 01:56:09.000 And just as a side note i'm very interested in what you said right at the beginning, by me about the acoustic quality of the place where the conversations take place.

01:56:09.000 --> 01:56:18.000 If you have any kind of reference to people writing about that , is online for us, it's really interesting.

01:56:18.000 --> 01:56:24.000 I. it frustrates me. I started out my work in experience.

01:56:24.000 --> 01:56:40.000 Design in places. places are the root of words. okay that objects I have in my world are, if I I turn that into words from the first moment of my existence, and after that i'm hung by the words I can use to describe something and if

01:56:40.000 --> 01:56:49.000 I'm not in the same place as you I will never be able to nothing in my whole world.

01:56:49.000 --> 01:57:00.000 What ever make up the fact that we're not in the same place, nothing even different views of the same place are a problem, and then our experience of that place is absolutely essential.

01:57:00.000 --> 01:57:12.000 We will, We just do not acknowledge this and it can't be done, cannot actually go back to that place, and our different views of that one place.

01:57:12.000 --> 01:57:17.000 And so everyone keeps on ignoring this. It just the acoustics, Mar.

01:57:17.000 --> 01:57:22.000 And you know, every time you just move around it. Second order cybernetics again.

01:57:22.000 --> 01:57:32.000 But you know the mature version of it you you can't even stand in the same place that somebody else was in, because their view of it is always going to be different to your view of it, because you've got a different

01:57:32.000 --> 01:57:47.000 prehistory. so we are constantly ever you know trying to make up for that, and it's almost impossible to do, except for to get into the synergy, where it's like I accepted that you where you were standing in your view of it it's different to mine.

01:57:47.000 --> 01:57:52.000 But we've got this at all synergy i'm not going to take the food out of your mouth.

01:57:52.000 --> 01:57:56.000 If I had a meal beforehand and the foods physically got to be there or otherwise.

01:57:56.000 --> 01:58:02.000 I won't understand the importance of what I just said that's where empathy comes from.

01:58:02.000 --> 01:58:06.000 I can't know what it's like to be in America not at all.

01:58:06.000 --> 01:58:25.000 This. Why would you want to very sad in some ways like and i'm surrounded by nature, and when a Chinese student in my own house says she can't see a tree in a rural city?

01:58:25.000 --> 01:58:33.000 I am just I the gap between us and we're living in the one house, and they're saying in rural china.

01:58:33.000 --> 01:58:43.000 You only have buildings in a township and you do not know what a trees you've got to look at your phone instead, because that's more relevant than the tree.

01:58:43.000 --> 01:58:53.000 Yeah, just like, how can you know where food comes from how can you like It's just the gap is enormous, miss.

01:58:53.000 --> 01:59:06.000 So anyway. the one thing that can connect us is nature and i'm sorry to be is like, and we're losing so much of it that it's almost impossible to connect again, because everything's constructed from that 1 point

01:59:06.000 --> 01:59:16.000 anyway, I was in I was in Shanghai in 2,007, and I had seen this documentary called Shanghai Ghetto, which was about the Jews that escaped You're up in it up in

01:59:16.000 --> 01:59:21.000 Shanghai, and it's a very wonderful film and

01:59:21.000 --> 01:59:24.000 This was the year before the 2,008 Olympics.

01:59:24.000 --> 01:59:33.000 So they were in the process of raising the last 12 blocks of what I remembered from that that movie , those houses were still there.

01:59:33.000 --> 01:59:45.000 There were there were build doors is all around them and everywhere. we're high rises and concrete, and I thought to myself, Imagine, if you're a person of 50 60 70 years old, and everything you know has been powered under

01:59:45.000 --> 01:59:56.000 and cemented over, and high rises built you know your connection to the land has been severed, irrevocably, and it must have an amazingly traumatic effect on your soul.

01:59:56.000 --> 02:00:10.000 I just I can't imagine what that is like I mean I can, because I can go back to places that were sacred to me when I was a child that are now you know, bulldozed up and horrible this is having

02:00:10.000 --> 02:00:15.000 to millions and 1 million. a 1 billion people in China are suffering this right?

02:00:15.000 --> 02:00:28.000 This is the pair of the cent talk the conversations that I'm listening to that Tyson and dave Snowden everyone they're talking about how we we diaspora so I don't have the right to be an

02:00:28.000 --> 02:00:31.000 indigenous person, even though my family goes back to Wales 1,088.

02:00:31.000 --> 02:00:38.000 I can bring the book asleep. 2 meters away from a book that shows how my family goes back that far.

02:00:38.000 --> 02:00:44.000 It's not quite a 1,000 years but it's pretty close to it, and that's the written word you know this This person.

02:00:44.000 --> 02:00:48.000 This person, this person. this is half of my family or a quarter of it, anyway.

02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:51.000 I don't have the right to be indigenous at all.

02:00:51.000 --> 02:01:01.000 And yet I see also this counter in equation around an invitation from fellow Australians to say, We are all Australian.

02:01:01.000 --> 02:01:13.000 We are all Australian, and it's almost like it we're not seating the land, but we're saying in this time, and in this moment we are all of this continent and of this place, and and when they say that we can

02:01:13.000 --> 02:01:19.000 move forwards the minute Somebody says no you can't be of this place.

02:01:19.000 --> 02:01:29.000 I have no connection to Anything I can't be anything except for something historically. I'm not allowed to be because I wasn't born in Wales.

02:01:29.000 --> 02:01:36.000 I can't say i'm welsh and so you've got everyone who's moved and this is pretty much everyone on the planet.

02:01:36.000 --> 02:01:41.000 If you go right back to it, Dna, and you know where you know Africa and the whole thing.

02:01:41.000 --> 02:01:54.000 Everyone has shifted and we're losing the only thing that connects us to the land at all historically in neurology, which is the environment, the natural environments that were in like, If you have no natural environment it's the only

02:01:54.000 --> 02:02:02.000 thing that can connect us historically over time. this where we came from, and it's just that I once you lose that.

02:02:02.000 --> 02:02:13.000 Then you have to renegotiate what an environment is is a buildings with 1 one blade of grass and half a tree is that, and you can't do that quickly.

02:02:13.000 --> 02:02:17.000 It's , we've lifted 3 billion people out of poverty.

02:02:17.000 --> 02:02:22.000 We've lifted them into those high rises and ruin their lives.

02:02:22.000 --> 02:02:28.000 Yeah, completely. and if you give them one plant at least is something you can observe, but it's not connected with the other things.

02:02:28.000 --> 02:02:34.000 You can't observe complexity, cause you can't you can't create complexity.

02:02:34.000 --> 02:02:46.000 It has to emerge and it emerges over time so we've got all these different systems that are emerging in different places based on accidentally what your highwise looks like, and what I sounds like.

02:02:46.000 --> 02:02:51.000 And it's completely inaccessible and as somebody else lives in another Zoom Vay version of it.

02:02:51.000 --> 02:02:57.000 So how can I feel empathetic about something that I don't want to live in Hi!

02:02:57.000 --> 02:03:04.000 Look, and a little one of those buildings watch me camp under a tree somewhere, feeling much happier.

02:03:04.000 --> 02:03:17.000 But lots of people can never do, that we can't connect So anyway, this very huge divides, based on just the fact that we're exposed to different environments, and there's almost no overcoming it I can't understand

02:03:17.000 --> 02:03:27.000 America it's just like I can't understand that because i'm not there, and it's it saddens me a lot, and it energizes me a lot.

02:03:27.000 --> 02:03:34.000 It's like, How can I even get close to that anyway?

02:03:34.000 --> 02:03:40.000 Sorry it's so illustrating in the .

02:03:40.000 --> 02:03:43.000 Yeah, you see these plots. I have been here for a reason.

02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:55.000 Anyway. Yeah, as much as close as I can get to nature as much as the time as possible.

02:03:55.000 --> 02:04:00.000 Let's play up can yeah that's snake plant was a little.

02:04:00.000 --> 02:04:13.000 I raised it from a pop. But now it's a wild jungle, that's I think, that's the only thing I can do is just to to really get try and get as close as possible to nature.

02:04:13.000 --> 02:04:17.000 And see what I learned from her as much of the time with other people.

02:04:17.000 --> 02:04:23.000 And then it just sort of sorts itself out a little bit just a little bit.

02:04:23.000 --> 02:04:32.000 Let's recreate that some people on this call though that I'm. a big fan of Michael need and Michael talks about the in America.

02:04:32.000 --> 02:04:40.000 There is a pastime that far you combine all of the sports, pastimes, and even equal half of the people that engage in this past time.

02:04:40.000 --> 02:04:53.000 Do you know what it is gardening. yeah and michael's Take on This is gardening as a way to bow and touch the earth, because you're constantly have to put your head blow your heart and put your hands over the soil

02:04:53.000 --> 02:04:56.000 and it connects you to the earth in a very profound way.

02:04:56.000 --> 02:05:02.000 And When I got here my patio had no no vegetation around it.

02:05:02.000 --> 02:05:10.000 I I It was all hard pack clay and I there we go I I don't know if it's whose book this is.

02:05:10.000 --> 02:05:20.000 But this is like, I said. I think it is pretty much the only way that we can reconnect, and and things like it's just absolutely foundational.

02:05:20.000 --> 02:05:23.000 I don't know you know this book's got lots of different models.

02:05:23.000 --> 02:05:29.000 But you all have to eat food and there's Renaissance for change to green cities.

02:05:29.000 --> 02:05:36.000 I mean there's no no reason we cannot create green spaces that are capable of raising food and beauty in the city.

02:05:36.000 --> 02:05:43.000 It just takes, you know we have to We have to do it and I'm looking at doug's painting behind him that he probably painted of

02:05:43.000 --> 02:05:51.000 Probably something right out your window. Huh! Doug yeah that's the backside of the house on the Russian River, and I turned the screen around to look outside.

02:05:51.000 --> 02:05:57.000 But it's super bright so we can't see it it's like, you know.

02:05:57.000 --> 02:06:03.000 I and this way, you know we've lost class to this conversation, but you know I do agree.

02:06:03.000 --> 02:06:17.000 It's like just grow something. and Then talk about it and and keep on trying to do that one thing where can you put something in your world that is live, and I've looked at enough of the subnetic stuff for a

02:06:17.000 --> 02:06:23.000 chopping street the other day. The definition and and the indigenous stuff.

02:06:23.000 --> 02:06:28.000 Then the difference between and this comes back to coding and such

02:06:28.000 --> 02:06:38.000 Something is animated. Can okay? could be animated like the difference between steel and wood.

02:06:38.000 --> 02:06:46.000 So would you can have a conversation around it's a liveness.

02:06:46.000 --> 02:06:50.000 If that makes sense where steel is harder to have that conversation around its aliveness.

02:06:50.000 --> 02:07:04.000 But you can't do indigenous thinking, unless you could pretend that the animal or the plant actually could talk to you, that you could actually listen to the plant or listen to the ant, or listen to the tree.

02:07:04.000 --> 02:07:11.000 But can I listen to steel in the same way and it's, too removed from where it came from.

02:07:11.000 --> 02:07:16.000 So, anyway. i'm i'm practicing trying to say what would that thing tell me if I could listen to it?

02:07:16.000 --> 02:07:25.000 And sitting with that question, and that then becomes something that has agency and that's sort of the boundary that I'm experimenting with at the moment.

02:07:25.000 --> 02:07:34.000 Is that if I listen to an end I can watch that move around, and I can watch a like a leaf dine, and not that makes sense.

02:07:34.000 --> 02:07:45.000 But steel doesn't have that degree of change in it So this is sort of limality there around agency in life and animation and animacy.

02:07:45.000 --> 02:07:52.000 And that's where i'm trying to retune myself to is to say, if I sat and watched that plant for a while, what would it do?

02:07:52.000 --> 02:07:58.000 And with terminates photography you can i'm just not good to do as much of that as perhaps I could.

02:07:58.000 --> 02:08:09.000 But the people who make a lot of learning in this places they actually do sit and do an awful lot of watching, just watching and listening.

02:08:09.000 --> 02:08:13.000 And then they turn into it i've just started a sand talk.

02:08:13.000 --> 02:08:23.000 But I I guess it's in the second chapter Tyson says he's not in he doesn't understand rocks.

02:08:23.000 --> 02:08:34.000 So he goes to someone who maybe doesn't understand other things, but knows everything about what Bracks have to say in the universe.

02:08:34.000 --> 02:08:38.000 So I think it does have a lot you can't understand everything.

02:08:38.000 --> 02:08:46.000 But you can understand something and talk with people will listen to people deeply who understand.

02:08:46.000 --> 02:08:53.000 Maybe steel, maybe steel cantal, maybe maybe , , in its own way.

02:08:53.000 --> 02:08:57.000 I think we actually, because we've created so many artificial environments.

02:08:57.000 --> 02:09:13.000 If you look at on the Uk for example, I Can't say of this of my own place to Stalia, but in the Uk you you could reasonably say that that every part of that lanform has been stood on and changed

02:09:13.000 --> 02:09:19.000 over time. In Australia there are plenty of places you can go to where you could pretend that no one has ever stood there before.

02:09:19.000 --> 02:09:26.000 I regularly have that experience. So I think that once you've got a lot of artificial environments.

02:09:26.000 --> 02:09:38.000 You actually have to say, What does this still tell me and an architect? My dad's an engineer, an architecture and engineer would look at the materiality, and they would see differences, And this is where you need to connect to

02:09:38.000 --> 02:09:44.000 physics, and you know things like bombing and dialogue and other bits and pieces.

02:09:44.000 --> 02:09:53.000 You know this this definitely for materials. I think that we will get to a point where an Ai is one of these things as well.

02:09:53.000 --> 02:09:57.000 When you have to say, What if I sit with this robot?

02:09:57.000 --> 02:10:07.000 What could this robot tell me about know this time in space it's going to be different? But i've got to make the effort to say, what could this other thing as an intelligent thing?

02:10:07.000 --> 02:10:19.000 What could still tell me about my possibilities now because we've gone so far past the point of legitimate intimacy.

02:10:19.000 --> 02:10:22.000 If it was a stretch deal with a rock it's going to be an even bigger stretch to do it with. still.

02:10:22.000 --> 02:10:33.000 But I think we're already doing It Yeah, we just don't know how to sit with that question, and say you know, and it's not a philosophical thing.

02:10:33.000 --> 02:10:49.000 It just isn't you know the material at the rock and the architects and engineers. So they do this all the time, you know, when when steel, when rock, when wood, what can I do with X we've got to that

02:10:49.000 --> 02:10:54.000 point We're getting it really good at asking steel what the steel is telling us, and it's like Whoa!

02:10:54.000 --> 02:11:07.000 That's a bit woo. but engineers do it all the time This is a terrific book, but it's it's how the different the floor in the house where my wife is sleeping at the moment.

02:11:07.000 --> 02:11:12.000 But it's it's written by a an Indian woman Hindustani.

02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:33.000 A woman who it was an apprentice architect on some of the beautiful modern skyscrapers in London, and she wrote a book about materials where she goes into all the materials that we use since the the at least the

02:11:33.000 --> 02:11:54.000 bronze aids to make big buildings and she writes about them by getting into what that material says about where it came from, and what it can do for the world i'll get the reference

02:11:54.000 --> 02:11:59.000 Alexander's turning up in a lot of things at the moment because he died recently.

02:11:59.000 --> 02:12:09.000 And he's talking about how can you create places that will allow you to feel, and you can step in.

02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:15.000 And then there is definitely a dimensionality to around it because you've got to actually force people to be close enough to react to something.

02:12:15.000 --> 02:12:25.000 And if you let the spaces be too big they won't have to feel, Anyway, it's time to go. I guess.

02:12:25.000 --> 02:12:34.000 So. yeah, the The set last part of this the last 45 min was also really good.

02:12:34.000 --> 02:12:55.000 So I'm glad you kept the recording on I did your .