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00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:17.000 This is the Don of everything. Book circle meeting on Zoom for March, the thirtieth, 2,022 enough subtitles for me.
00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:33.000 But turn on transcript. so welcome everybody. Thanks for thanks for attending a for the folks who are kind of new.
00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:40.000 We We had our first meeting a first meeting on Friday, and you can find the the Youtube, and and everything for it.
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:50.000 If you're interested we had about I we almost had about I don't know we had Maybe a third of kind of like figuring out you know who's in the room what we're doing and maybe a third of talking about
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:58.000 the book, which was really deep and interesting fast, and then maybe a third about kind of organizational stuff.
00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:15.000 This meeting, I think might be a little bit different we might talk a little bit more about organizational stuff, because we've we've got more done kind of and more to do and i'm a little bit self-conscious but i've
00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:23.000 kind of grabbed the reins of of this little ship that we're on, and and i'm putting this into a fair bit of process.
00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:33.000 I think everybody's most most people at least are happy with that, and it the the genesis of that is just making sure that we get done.
00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:40.000 What we want to get done I don't care too much what we get done, and I don't care who's grabbing the reins.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:50.000 I do care that we're affirmatively productive in a way that that we've you know at least thought about and desired.
00:01:50.000 --> 00:02:04.000 So does that make sense? What I thought I would do is go over the structure that we've got so far, and and i'm super happy to either.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Just go. yeah, that's great or tear it apart or whatever. So let's do that for at least half the call kind of.
00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:27.000 And then, maybe as a reward, we can take the rest of the call, and just talk about the book or about topics related to the book, and i'm going to end crisply at the hour, because I know Bill and I at least have another meeting to get
00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:33.000 to another. Another part of this I I hope I hope to break some of our conventions.
00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:43.000 One of them is being having focused meetings that are set up to do something and get it over with, and we're on to the rest of our day.
00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:56.000 So So let me share my screen. actually let me do a self-refective or a reflective thing real quick.
00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:07.000 One of the things that I found was really interesting. As I put, I was poking pretty deep into the zoom settings, and it turns out that you can enable different different recordings.
00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:15.000 The standard recording is the speaker, and the screens he or she is sharing
00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:24.000 I've enabled something called the gallery recording so I really like the gallery recording, because you see everybody's reactions to what's going on the screen.
00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:34.000 And then bad side. the bad thing of that is that the gallery recording doesn't include the screen share So the screen share comes out with another separate recording, and you could slice them together.
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:39.000 But I haven't gotten that fancy or dedicated I thought there was a combo view.
00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:46.000 No, maybe I I think there's not i'll shoot i'll go check.
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:54.000 I thought there was a combo view so anyway, i'm looking at this beautiful galley view that I've got set right now.
00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Okay, this is a awesome recording and then i'm going to switch to screen sharing for a chunk of it, and and maybe that'll come out in the recording or not, or maybe i'll get excited and spice them together.
00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:11.000 It would be nice to do both because I personally really enjoy watching people's reactions to things.
00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:18.000 Yeah, like i'm in a circle of people talking about something rather than on the phone.
00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:25.000 I guess, an easy fix, and and one that I did at least for one call already is. I actually posted to Youtube for one meeting.
00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:34.000 One of them was the gallery view, One of them was the speaker and the screen show view, and then we're in the name.
00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Well, then, you have to kind of like. pick through both of them.
00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:42.000 If you want to see both of them. But, anyway, so, hey, Wendy, welcome!
00:04:42.000 --> 00:05:06.000 We're just getting started. so I was going to share my screen my web browser. So we've got a We've got a website where we're going to accumulate things like meeting notes this is the meeting notes from
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.000 last meeting. And this is actually, and this reminds me let me also do.
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:19.000 Here's a hackham d for today. for folks who are hacked and Dish, I think last meeting we were a little bit more hack in theish bed that's okay.
00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:28.000 I'll learn eventually. Yeah, for that link feel free to go there.
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:40.000 You don't have to you don't have to sign in so kind of ignore the sign and stuff, and you might see an edit button the upper right that you can click and you might want to toggle one of
00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:47.000 these views. after you click the edit button the
00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:53.000 So anyway, we've got a website this is going to be kind of our our group brain.
00:05:53.000 --> 00:06:09.000 Our knowledge repository. hopefully this will be reasonably easy for everybody to at least find stuff in, and we're not really expecting that people at least I'm not really i'm not really expecting that people will out or edit stuff to
00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:15.000 this much, except maybe doing meetings, or something like that when we make hackamd pages.
00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:22.000 They're easy to save off and and turn into turn into a page like this.
00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:28.000 So all of this stuff was typed during the meeting by at least several people.
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:38.000 And we did cool things like we started talking about some of the big questions that we might address as as the club unfolds.
00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:48.000 We talked about other graver books. We talked about other people who came up a conversation kind of as we go.
00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:59.000 These will the Wiki gnomes. Maybe the Wiki gardeners will turn these into links for another page on the site.
00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.000 And so this thing will continue to grow into kind of a rich information resource.
00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:11.000 I think right now. the the Wiki team is also a little bit embarrassed.
00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:15.000 Maybe, is a word to say. the The website is a little clunky right now.
00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:23.000 It doesn't have like maybe a sidebar would be really cool with some navigation stuff, and things like that.
00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:32.000 This is kind of the escape valve right now, you can click all pages and see everything on it, and even though it's not super well organized here.
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:43.000 At least you can get to any page you need to. As you might guess, this this website is implemented as a massive wiki.
00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:50.000 And so the Wiki folks are going to be editing this in their wiki way rather than as a website.
00:07:50.000 --> 00:08:01.000 So So with that. Oh, 1 one last thing there's a super cool tool kite called hypothesis.
00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:13.000 You might look at this website and go dang there's a misspelling. or I wish we could add something or you know, or I want to kind of chat about this.
00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:17.000 Like I would in a Google Doc. but I don't see any place where I can turn on the chat.
00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:25.000 There's a third party tool kay called hypothesis, which lets you basically turn on chat for this this website.
00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:31.000 This page, you can actually go to any page here and start commenting it.
00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:36.000 So this is something that's kind of open to the public it's not exclusive to us.
00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:41.000 I don't think most you know we won't find a lot of people who aren't in the group using this.
00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:45.000 But this is one way, not the only way to tell the website team, hey?
00:08:45.000 --> 00:09:06.000 There's something interesting here, or we need to change it or whatever. think. the more normal way will be to go to And I think probably everybody here is my computer is being slow on dns or something.
00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:13.000 On new sites. Let me grab something over here and come back and keep well.
00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:16.000 I'll let this load I was gonna go to the chat Channel.
00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:25.000 But so with that we've got the wiki website the zoom meetings a chat channel that most of you know about.
00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:37.000 Maybe all of you and then there's something called I called it organizational article number One, and it's in draft form, and some of you have seen this.
00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:42.000 Let me scroll down to these are people who've added their names.
00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:52.000 I i'm looking at this I didn't say this in so many words. but i'm looking at this as the first article, and and this sounds really overweight for a little book club thing.
00:09:52.000 --> 00:10:11.000 But the first article in in a constitution so you know here's a group of people, and we have things that we want to accomplish, and and it's worth kind of setting down for all of us to kind of read, and think
00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:15.000 and either agree with or disagree with, you know. Are we an informal club?
00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:25.000 Yeah, probably. so. who can join? Do we have a social norms and maybe we'll say what they are, Maybe they'll kind of implicit.
00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:37.000 So this is like how we work together. Basically, And one of the big things that we accomplished in the last group I brought up the the concept of.
00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:42.000 Are we working in the open or kind of like behind a curtain?
00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:47.000 We'd decided open was okay, and if we're open and publishing things.
00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:55.000 Then we need to publish them with an explanation a license for other people to understand how we're sharing them.
00:10:55.000 --> 00:11:04.000 We agreed. so far that Cc. by Creative Commons attribution is is perfectly fine.
00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:10.000 We did feel, though, that we didn't want people like the rest of the world going, hey?
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:19.000 There's this guy, Peter kaminski and he must believe all the stuff that's been published on this website, and we're like, No, that's not what we want.
00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:24.000 So there's this disclaimer this is not an academic thing.
00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.000 It's not even conclusive so it's unfinished and informal.
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:42.000 And it doesn't necessarily mean that we came to consensus about any of the stuff that we write, and it doesn't None of these things represent any particular person's viewpoints some and some of us in the group might
00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:50.000 completely disagree with you know what with what's written so so we kind of came up with this.
00:11:50.000 --> 00:12:01.000 I. we did it, and wrote it down a little bit and now that is, at the top of the first, the homepage of the site, and it's out also at the bottom of every page.
00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:12.000 And the site. so if everyone's kind of good with that we don't have to talk about it more If folks aren't good with.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:18.000 We should talk about it more soon. I'm fine with thanks for the effort.
00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:33.000 Awesome. Thanks, Judy. So first the first important thing is to kind of figure out what we want to be doing, and especially also what we don't want to be doing.
00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:52.000 So I started some bullets here this kind of what's what we want to do and what what we want to avoid doing would be a great thing to talk about a lot more in this call Thank you yeah, just because I was
00:12:52.000 --> 00:13:08.000 thinking about this, and I like having this type of call at some frequency just to sort of do a pulse on how the group is doing, and maybe separating that from the bi-weekly, discussion which might have substructure to it as
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:21.000 well later. Yep. because I think as the group engages it's going to evolve, and that will affect are informal rules. but I do like the idea of having a bit of a covenant at the start.
00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:26.000 But very fluid kind of in the form of an evolving community statement.
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.000 Yeah, let me see if I can capture that, Judy.
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:45.000 So. let me turn this back this way, so maybe by weekly content calls, and also like, I don't know quarterly monthly by monthly, not too often.
00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:56.000 But you know, maybe quarterly would be enough. whatever to be determined.
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:14.000 I guess, and what would you call those calls root framework. i'm going to borrow a a term from another.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:21.000 So now the working team that some of us are Yeah, social dimensions is fine.
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:26.000 But I want it personally, i'd like it to be a combination of social dimensions in terms of behavior.
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:34.000 But also we happy with how we're discussing all of this in terms of the framing of the the process itself.
00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:47.000 And maybe those are social dimensions, too, this just seems like such an important book that it weren't being really thoughtfully digested.
00:14:47.000 --> 00:15:01.000 Thanks to Super helpful. So let me go back to this kind of founding document again, and I don't want to like drag us through a piece by piece.
00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:06.000 But I also want to make sure that we've thought about the chunks of it.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:13.000 So if you haven't read this it might be good to kind of read through it, add your name at the bottom I am.
00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:22.000 I didn't I just didn't add my name anything Yeah, I did do it, did read it, and I thought and Judy is good.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Yeah, Is there? Is there any part of this that we need to discuss here, or kind of in synchronous mode?
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:42.000 As aside from goals and any goals, I think that we could dig into that a lot more.
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:56.000 The the thing that I would love to come. out of this call with is a good understanding of what we're trying to do with this book club, and and so some of these, the the first couple of these are really foundational stuff.
00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:11.000 You know there's a there's an inclus inclusion statement and there's a I think this one is really important that even though there's a fair amount of structure here I think it's really important that you can either lean
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:24.000 into as much of the structures you want or not and it's fine, including you don't even really have to read the book as long as you're not disruptive when the when folks are just a discussion discussing the book
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:29.000 but a thing that I didn't the these aren't these aren't like these are like meta goals almost.
00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:35.000 And then There's primary goals I think which is I know I can.
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:42.000 I'm gonna say something on behalf of bell and he can correct me to the extent it needs correction, But he's like Pete.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:55.000 This thing should have have a it should run its course, you know we should get together for 6 months, or however long work through the book work through, you know, generate a bunch of interesting stuff out of that.
00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:04.000 But we should make progress, and we should get conclude you know this is meant to be at least in Bill's mind. and my mind, too.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:11.000 This isn't meant to be a coffee clutch forever, you know, on on the topics around don of everything.
00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:20.000 It really means to march through the book, and the big questions and smaller questions generate stuff, including not necessarily conclusions.
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:28.000 But you know lots of information and a thing that we're kind of poking towards is generating.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:35.000 What questions do you ask about the book? What questions do you have about the topics of the book rather than you know?
00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:40.000 When you go off to to talk to somebody about the book. you know you would.
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:54.000 Maybe you would say, well, gray bristol blah blah blah, and it's like, yeah a more interesting thing is here's the most interesting question that came up in for me as we were reading this book.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:00.000 Anyway. so I would like to do some more of that kind of let like.
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:05.000 What are we really trying to accomplish here? and including, you know, maybe maybe other people would think.
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.000 No, we should get together and just have this thing run forever.
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:19.000 That would be an interesting discussion. The other good thing to talk about is there's There's a couple things Judy and I just kind of touched it here.
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.000 We Haven't really discussed the frequency of calls or last call.
00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:36.000 We talked about. Maybe each call is kind of bimodal and there's a truck we're talking about this month's chapter or something, and then there's another half of the call, which is a little bit more free form
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:42.000 than that. Talking about Meta questions about some of the the topics that have come up.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:19:03.000 I have a strong desire and I think it's a reasonably shared desire that we set up agenda for each call and outputs that we want from the call and drive the calls that way rather than just getting together and hoping
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:14.000 that that things emerge I love emergence but I This reminds me there's a big big it's not not the wrong way, wrote something Zoom calls will have a clear agenda.
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:26.000 And expected outcomes prepared a week or so in advance didn't happen for this call for for reasons this is a special call and it was you said that we could go Anyway, that this was a formative. call.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:32.000 So you did actually stay. Yeah, it doesn't have a clear agenda didn't have a clear agenda.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:38.000 Well, maybe that was clear enough. Bill said something interesting in place of outcomes.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:49.000 He's like Well, maybe we should have a defined activity going into the call Bill, and I haven't haven't had a sidebar on this.
00:19:49.000 --> 00:20:01.000 I've been waiting for other people to kind of took ring in I my and even something like maybe we'll just have a conversation for a call for me.
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:12.000 I would call I I would write that into the agenda you know we had 30 min of check-in, and we had 30 min of just conversation, and that that's the expected output of the call i'm pretty
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:18.000 jazzed about saying that we, our calls will have expected outcomes, even if the app is just.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:31.000 We conversed for 30 min or 60 min. judy I just wonder maybe we want to experiment with different types of dimensions.
00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:40.000 I'm fascinated by what I gravitate to in terms of the key key question of each almost each subsection of things.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:46.000 It's almost like if I were highlighting in yellow at you know, and highlight 3 words or 5 5% or something.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:55.000 And then It's like i'm gonna ponder on that. but not right now, because I want to keep reading, and everyone probably has a different approach to that.
00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:02.000 I think that the discussion could be very rich if we thought about it in terms of the levels of penetration, because there's sort of like.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Oh, that's a new concept I want to think about it well, how does that fit with this?
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:12.000 And this, that's a second level you know What are the implications of that would be a third level.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:20.000 And I think this group likely thinks maybe not in those words, but in similar multidimensional ways about the content they digest.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:40.000 That makes a lot of sense, and and I think you you're kind of saying that the the meetings might have different dimensions as well as exactly Yeah, Billy, you've got your hand up I just wanted to follow up on
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:53.000 so just a little bit about where my perspective on you know what I what I wrote in that document comes from so i'm looking at what people get together, and to meet together all right.
00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:00.000 I'm talking about tradition of socio-technical, organizational behavior, kind of practice from like.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:09.000 I don't know post world war 2 psychoanalytically based.
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:23.000 But when you get to get what we get together, when I talk rather than saying we're gonna have outcomes, you might say the activity we are getting together today is you know, we're gonna we have read chapter one and we're going to
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:35.000 like, you know, Either present questions have a conversation. There may be an outcome, you know, or there may just be a discussion, and we may say it.
00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:42.000 But one of the outcomes from when we get together and talk is we are, you know, we keep notes in the document, and it's here, you know.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:57.000 But I think it helps when I was you know We're actively engaged in corporate work, and stuff it really helps in a meeting, and when you get together with the reason we're here today is I did this at the National
00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:07.000 academies Once we're here to share information that's the work. we're not going to answer questions. we're not going to make decisions.
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:16.000 We're just going to share information and we made sure everybody got a chance, you know, but it helps people stay in this hour.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.000 Here's what's happening do you know and I could be like what Judy said.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:27.000 Maybe something will come up for us as you read this book that we really wanted, you know, and that may be well.
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:35.000 Maybe we need a call that has this as its primary, I mean the the terminology from the All.
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:46.000 The organizational stuff is pretty task. you know the reason there's this made anyway, so I just wanted to clarify that a little bit.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:51.000 And also to say, I look at something like this is having a lifetime.
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:57.000 The beginning a body of work. and then we finished the book, and we had this great conversation.
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:02.000 You know we may. We may talk about this book for the rest of our lives.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:15.000 But this kind of activity we did here in trying to there's a group of people, Whatever dig in on cover discover recover will be it.
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:26.000 Is, is its own , distinct event or activity, or something where the boundary real, real, quick.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:34.000 How does How do people feel about that is? Has this got an arc that ends, or is it something that we want to get started?
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000 And we we love each other so much that we want to keep doing this until until we all put heaven or something like that.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:48.000 Yes, and yes, and Judy, when you say yes and yes, is it okay?
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:57.000 If we kind of have an arc to the book, and and then we reconstitute later and say, Okay, absolutely.
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:06.000 I just i'm fascinated by what other people find interesting in any given section, and that's part of the richness of the group discussion.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:19.000 Thanks. and thank you, Bill. I think you and I should have a side conversation about primary task and expected outcomes, and maybe we're completely agreeing.
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:25.000 Maybe we have different perspectives, and i'd like to talk to that more and bring it back to the group class.
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:33.000 So you've got your hand up. yeah I talked about the lens through which to a few.
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:55.000 The material last time, and i've been working on that trying to to shape a lens to to observe this material. And the first thing that and I watched several videos of interviews with the cool author and Arthur, and I posted one
00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:04.000 actually the this democracy. now, where you know, they are active in the 2,008 boycott Wall Street demonstration.
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:15.000 So the authors are very politically engaged in motivated, but who really strikes me just starting to read this book is the amazing brutality of the Europeans.
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:34.000 During this era. I traveled through Peru a couple years ago, and I was just stunned at the violence and brutality of the Spaniards in subjugating, nor the local tribes.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:44.000 I mean. I lived in Asia, you know, and you see what the British did in Hong Kong, I mean in in the in the Chinese theater.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:49.000 You look at India, you know, and in what happened there, and so.
00:26:49.000 --> 00:27:00.000 But I think the the reflections in this book are similar to what Tolstoy was writing about, pondering how you know.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:07.000 Very a handful of people could subjugate millions into submission In How is this even possible?
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:22.000 Is this letter to a hindu that told story world which is I'm gonna post it because is just phenomenal in summarizing the absurdity of a very of a few oftentimes really
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.000 unqualified people exerting power over so many.
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:31.000 And so I see that you know it's just just starting to read here
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:47.000 The intelligence of the Indian tribes and some of the cultural sophistications of the Indians penetrating into the European culture.
00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:01.000 You know, into the French intellectuals. but then wiping out these people into portality, even in Canada, into into the twentieth century of mistreating the Indians.
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:10.000 So much so there, is and so. that's sort of the lens that i'm that i'm starting to shape in reading this material shift.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:29.000 Yeah, that's super helpful klaus and I put in the chat. Chaos talked also a little bit in the previous call about looking at the reading the book through a lens, and I think that makes a lot of sense
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.000 and it kind of inspired me, and I guess I said this in the Channel, and then I hadn't thought about it too much.
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:43.000 But I can imagine us so for me. as soon as we talk about a lens to read the book through.
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:53.000 It's like Well, I think we're gonna have a couple lenses, and then, you know that that makes me think Oh, it's gonna be so cool.
00:28:53.000 --> 00:29:00.000 When the wiki gets there that we have you know a page of lenses, and then another page for each lens.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.000 You know there's a lens for from capitalist point of view.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There's a lens from you know a humanist point of view.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:21.000 There's a lens from the viewpoint of we've we have a We have a real crisis with climate and food and things like that, and you know, how are we going to apply the things that we can learn from this book to
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:30.000 feed forward into the building of a new, You know, new social social world kind of
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.000 So you know I I think I think It's I think it's super.
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:52.000 I really appreciate it, Klaus coming, up and and saying that lens thing to be sort of explicit about the way that the way that we're reading the book and then explicit about the different ways that we could read
00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:03.000 the book, and so I kind of expect that to to mean that I you know, 3 months from now, or something when we've got 2 different viewpoints about a certain topic in the book.
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:09.000 It's like, you know, you can imagine 2 people arguing no, the book says this or the book says that.
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:21.000 And if you go okay, Well, this is one lens and another lens. and you guys, Aren't, necessarily disagreeing You're just looking at it from a different viewpoint, and being kind of meta aware of that I think
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.000 is gonna be super helpful. So thanks about thanks for lenses.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:33.000 Klaus. Hank: Yeah, let me react to a couple of things that have been said.
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:38.000 First of all, the the question about outcome versus activity.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:57.000 Actually I did put a comment in in the on the document, that somehow didn't get saved because I do agree with the bill on that, and that each session might have either an output or an outcome which can be differently defined but they
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:10.000 will all be activities, and you, one of them, might be brainstorming activity, and the other might be drafting a an article activity, and could be many different things.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:18.000 So you that sense, I think we should be open to what emerges from the group that we want to do together.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:23.000 200. The other thing has to do with 200 forever.
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:33.000 And a day, or march through the book, and and this band we well on the on the web page?
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.000 Or was it the mattermost page? There were other books and other thinkers.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:48.000 Some of them criticized by graver, and when Crow and a number of those thinkers have influenced my thinking, and maybe our thinking as well.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:55.000 So I could imagine that once we've we've dealt with this book and this set of ideas.
00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:06.000 There'll be another book. maybe not even published yet, which will have attracted everyone's attention on this group, or a different group of form around that.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.000 And thirdly, yeah, I do really like the idea of lenses.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:21.000 And if the format for our discussions has a lens of recession, I think that's a really good way of doing it.
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:32.000 Thanks, thanks, Hank with with respect to lifecycle and and term kind of
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:38.000 I guess I like both I like judy's answer yes and yes,
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:48.000 I think we can be more productive or most more focused my personal belief. I guess I think we could be more productive if we say, you know, we're gonna read book in 6 months or 12 months.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:00.000 Or whatever 9 months. and I like the idea of kind of being a word that I've got from some of my facilitation.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.000 History is, is ceremony ceremonial, ceremonious.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:15.000 I like the idea of you know seeing over time we could make a little infographic, you know these are the chapters that we've covered the topics that we've covered.
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:18.000 And you see it's like a thermometer filling up right or something.
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:21.000 A fundraising thing filling up we're getting you know we're halfway.
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.000 We're getting to the end and Then kind of graduating and saying, Okay, congratulations, folks.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:38.000 We've made it through this book and then you know closing this chapter affirmatively, and saying But that's not to say that we couldn't take the same group, and restart recharge or something you know or
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:51.000 Maybe it's several groups or whatever. But I really like the idea of coming to a close about something, and then restarting, reforming, you know, regenerating Jerry.
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:57.000 Cool. I like that, too. one real quick thing, Pete. Yeah.
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:04.000 Right here. Record gallery view with shared. screen wow it's right above record. Active speaker Galler view and shared screen but separately, which I have checked off.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:15.000 I don't want That that's like wait takes way too much editing. But this should fix your your your issue if you have it in the same place that's that's my normal default setting because I love gallery view.
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:28.000 As you do. Yeah, the second thing is, I feel like I have the lens that comes right after causes lens, because I agree completely with Klaus's lens, And then my interest really in a lot of these conversations is How do
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:33.000 we apply that way of seeing? How do we make that way of seeing?
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:43.000 Excel to somebody who completely objects to it right now and whether it's a crt objector a blm me to cringe or a white nationalist.
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:56.000 No post day member. I don't care but but how How do we actually take the insights that we're working on here and make help them shift the arc of history by pulling people away from like denialist points of
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.000 view is just the way i'd see it and maybe that's entirely the wrong way to speak it.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:08.000 But that's that's sort of what I i'm not here to I like sitting and learning with you all, and figuring this out.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:22.000 I want to apply this somehow in the world and and it seems like it might be who us in the path of exploration to Oh, sea lining, I didn't need I don't think I know about sea lining it might be
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:31.000 hoover's in the exploration to invite some of those people into the conversation, because I have a funny feeling that it's the path of discovery, and I like the holy crap it's not the finished product that
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:35.000 convinces them it's the path of inquiry in community that might.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:40.000 And so that's just the Thesis I don't know I like the idea of Shortorneys.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:52.000 This is very much, almost like an instance of what I was trying to do and weaving the world, and still want to do with weaving the world, because this is a it's a book club with with with benefits, and and part
00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:00.000 of the some of the benefits are geeky like it's a book club among geeks who can actually instrument stuff and do really interesting things.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:17.000 That's what I had, to add thanks jerry the I really like the idea to reach reach out to people who are on the other side of the agreement fence or something like that I wanted to know we're We're deep into
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000 you know I don't know the last 10 years or so we've gotten a lot of we've we've grown up a lot.
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:34.000 The the culture of social sharing. Now, has people who are not only on the other side.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:44.000 But maybe they're on the other side and they're being offensive, and they have offensive tactics, for you know, not listening or trying to take you down, or something like that.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.000 So as soon you just said objectors and cringers, and you know things like that.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:56.000 Sea lining is the art of grinding somebody down by continuing to ask very polite questions, you know.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:02.000 Can you explain this. Can you explain that you know so It's got an interesting history.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.000 Why it's called telining feel lining too, but so as we engage other people.
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:15.000 I one of the one of the tricks that we all need to kind of learn in our culture, and it's still developing how to do this.
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:37.000 But you have to not only try to help keep people and listen to people that you know aren't part of your your group, but also some of those people may actually be actively porting you, and and trying to confuse you and trying to just swamp you
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:45.000 with disinformation. Okay, so we've got 19 min left
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:50.000 Thanks everybody, for kind of going through all of that. Do we have any?
00:37:50.000 --> 00:38:01.000 So all as always. Let me know if you have any problems with any of the technological stuff, and and also don't feel like you have to participate in much of it.
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:16.000 I think the the core thing to make sure that we're all in is, we can get attend zoom meetings which all of us are cool with, and then be able to follow the chat channel, at least you know, at least in kind of a
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:25.000 micro level micro level. because that's what we'll be half, partly, will be partly in the chat and partly in zoom.
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:36.000 And then There's going to be other things that kind of below out of that one of the things that I forget who this was in in conversation with that.
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:45.000 Another thing that we've we've kind of gotten used to is it's so much fun to get all of us together that we really love the the doing of everything together.
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:52.000 And then you want to make sure that people don't feel left out or that everybody's you know.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:56.000 So we we have a we have a convention kind of almost in our culture of.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:03.000 We do the work together in in groups like This and then we don't do any work separately.
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:12.000 My guess is that this book club would be well served by having groups staying a lot aligned together.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:18.000 But having side conversations, you know one or 2 people together talking about stuff.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:25.000 I still want to talk more with Bill, and maybe Hank about primary primary activity versus outcome.
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:36.000 For instance, expected outcome. That would be a great thing for us to sidebar on, and kind of come back to the group and say, you know we we dug through that, and this is what it is.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.000 And and as well, you know, with any of the that one is a Meta topic.
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:44.000 It's even gonna be more interesting I think when we when we have actual topic stuff to talk about.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000 So I want to. I I think I think we need to make sure that we're doing the work, even when we're all together.
00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000 That also reminds me that I wonder my my guess is that we're gonna have biological meetings or something like that.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:10.000 We still need to kind of talk about the frequency of them.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:19.000 I kind of wonder if we're gonna have a time that alternates, or maybe we're going to even have 2 meetings every every Other Week.
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.000 And you kind of get to one or get to the other.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:25.000 But you mostly don't get to both of them you're not expected to get to both of them.
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:42.000 We need to figure out how to kind of decentralize our working together, and we've got enough infrastructure support to kind of put back together the decentralized pieces, and I hope hope that works we needed it as as a
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:48.000 larger. We need to get better at that. And so I think this book club is maybe going to be a good place to do that.
00:40:48.000 --> 00:41:03.000 Any questions about infrastructure. our constitution anything else and then we'll get on to the last 50 min of something else.
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:19.000 No, I just wanted to say something I think I don't know how this will work, but I think there's a possibility to use the manamos chat to have little sight conversations and and I had a little quick turnaround
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:26.000 on this one sentence that he typed in last week, they said, Oh, they sentence really struck me Happy sense.
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:35.000 I happen to have undermined it, Kid Hope whatever. That same afternoon, while I was reading the book, so I mentioned that game.
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:41.000 It ended up in a reply. thread, you know, but there is a place to just like.
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:47.000 Something came up on the on the Gmail list yesterday, and I put in some reflection I had from reading the book.
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:56.000 But I would might. We could just put these things there, and just you know they would just accumulate, or we could just label them.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:04.000 As a reflection i'd, start with what keep page of my own, which is reflections, and it has a date, you know, and a little pointer into the book.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:10.000 And then whatever I wanted to say about it in 2 or 3 synthesis, or something.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:17.000 So I mean they have some places to I don't know it's just a way to continue I conversation.
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:24.000 I mean a talking about the book, and what we're getting out of reading it.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:34.000 So that the top line of that I think is that even in our technology stuff, we've got places to have kind of sidebar conversations.
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:47.000 And to encourage that I I agree with that. And then I also think that having a cyber conversation outside of the technology, but at least bringing it back to either the madamos channel or to one of the the Wiki folks or something
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:51.000 like that is a good thing. Let me show you all real quick.
00:42:51.000 --> 00:43:07.000 Yes, Judy, this is going to say you're mentioning matter most. I really am liking matter most as a way to sort of develop threads and have the discussions occur someplace other than in my email Yeah, because it is
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000 properly threaded, and so forth. let me show you real quick.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000 So I said this in the channel, and it might not have been easy to see.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:33.000 But there's a there's a new function sorry there's a new function in this version of mannermost that some of us have started to use, and I haven't announced that the the Csc. folks haven't announced
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:38.000 it general consumption yet, but it's available to use if you see?
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:48.000 Actually Maybe so. So here's me here's Klaus just making a post, and I replied to the post in the old version of mannermost.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:58.000 This would be a whole separate post by itself. there's a new thing that will fold threads into a sidebar kind of thing.
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:17.000 So this is an optional feature to use this it's called collapse reply threads and it's optional, but it it might kind of the more we use that both the way that you do a reply
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:20.000 is here instead of just typing, you know something down here.
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:28.000 If the more we use the reply thing and then if people want to.
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:33.000 The collapsed reply threads the the better kind of bandwidth.
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:40.000 We'll get out of the the chat channel this is and a little bit of an advanced feature, and so don't feel like you have to do it.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:56.000 But the way that you get to that. is in settings display and collapsed for apply threads and there's a it's still beta it's pretty it's pretty close to being released so don't
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:03.000 worry too much about the stuff. and let me know if you need want help with that, and need help with that.
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:11.000 Not that we'll get to it today, but I think Kevin actually said some interesting things here, too.
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:20.000 So I hope this isn't just you know cargo culting, indigenous culture, retro cargo culting or something.
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:26.000 So he said some interesting things here that we should read and think about offline. Okay.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:36.000 So now 11 min. We kid each go around for 1 min and talk.
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:43.000 Were, or we could cover an important thing in the book that that comes up for folks, what should we do?
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:57.000 Maybe go around the room. It would be nice to at least hear everybody, maybe go around and have a closing thoughts, or opening thoughts even better from from each person.
00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:03.000 I'll run us in order and according to the word around my screen Very.
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:12.000 You're up first. me yes, Okay, i'll pass I think I talked enough a little earlier.
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:18.000 I'll give the time, and whoever looks like it thanks Jerry, i'll pass as well Trevor.
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:31.000 Yeah, i'm happy with the shape it's evolving So yeah, I'm just happy with that it's unfolding so cool.
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:40.000 Class. Yeah, I think I already stated my my major source.
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:49.000 But I I think particularly there is because of technology and communication and information.
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:54.000 I always considered four-dimensional thinking involving time.
00:46:54.000 --> 00:47:18.000 Right, because when you, when you open up to the information you can basically we lift the past because it's so well described, and and when you do that, then what you're seeing today takes on a complicated new, you know when you when you think in
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:32.000 terms of of thousands of years of evolution, and which I thought was so fast fascinating to read. Yvo Haari, you know, in the way he summarized the evolutionary path of our species.
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:37.000 So he, this is the focus yet another layer of that.
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:46.000 It takes us one step deeper into into understanding ourselves. And Yeah.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:48:01.000 So this is sort of a super meter level, perspective, when you get into the dimension of time to understand our our current predicament, and that's what I find truly fascinating.
00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:07.000 And you bring those voices together. It's like this letter I posted on from Tolstoy.
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:15.000 It's a it's a highly summarized version of his understanding of the power dimension.
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:27.000 You know of our species, and the absurdity that we subjugate ourselves to leadership that is often completely incompetent, or what we see right now.
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:34.000 No, this with the Ukrainian crisis, where one guy gets to make decisions that impact the entire planet.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:40.000 And so how do you get out of that? You know. How do you walk through this?
00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:01.000 And understanding that we are embedded in these power dimensions, and in just 200 can't figure out how to get out of it, and how to on to where we really need to move forward to as an existential issue, thanks alice
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:18.000 Hank. Yeah. i'm nearly finished with the book I think I only have 70 pages to go, and I've been trying to talk with a number of people about it who had never heard of the book, and I've always found it
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:26.000 extremely difficult to get to the metal level of saying what I really like in it.
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:41.000 And I'll say a few things and then it'll seem to discount other thinkers that have been foods me a lot like Carari or Jared diamonds and then i'm in a
00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:53.000 quandary But what do I really think about what i've read, and and i'm really interested in getting into this conversation with with the people here, and the others who don't be here because it's dense stuff and
00:49:53.000 --> 00:50:00.000 aside from all the references and the footnotes which have mostly passed over.
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:05.000 Every chapter gives enough to think about for a week or so.
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:22.000 Really looking forward to awesome thanks hank jack so I have to confess I'm still barely into the book, because I got dragged away and big software development thing that's that's sort of exploded in my
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:33.000 face. but I have to say these are very important conversations and it's it's it's it's really a pleasure being here, and at least listening if I can't participate.
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:51.000 Thanks, Jack, I pretty much said what I thought before. i'm very appreciative of this group of people getting together to attempt to understand and digest and share thoughts about what I think is a very powerful work.
00:50:51.000 --> 00:51:03.000 Thanks, judy wendy I just got the book yesterday but i'm so drawn to the time we've referenced it in so many different meetings.
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:16.000 I've been really excited to read it. so this gives me an excuse and an accountability to dive in, and i'm thrilled to be a part of a community of people where we can talk about it more deeply I really
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:19.000 liked all the framing and the infrastructure pete today.
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:32.000 It's so it's even it. provides even more inspiration and motivation, because I feel like then the conversations might actually apply to something which I think is what Jerry was was referring to and then, I really
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:46.000 appreciate your your addition class about the lenses and and what's a what came up for me was Maybe we Maybe it would be valuable to craft some of the lenses.
00:51:46.000 --> 00:52:01.000 Through a question, So that it's and we stay in that space of inquiry and recognition that we're never fully gonna ever answer the question right or that we don't even fully even if we're coming from
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:11.000 our own perspective. and that's a lens or coming from my own gender, and that's the lens or coming from my own history. and that's a lens that there's a question around that that that I also appreciate that I
00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:28.000 can't possibly represent all women or all right so it's Just I think maybe putting out some questions some leading questions that we want to answer would be a nice way to approach the material just a thought thanks Mandy Bill Yeah, so I
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:44.000 don't really I think i've said everything I Think Personally, i'm feeling very sympathetic with clouds, but just because what he's saying and just trying to pay attention. and what wendy just said about questions are reminding me
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:50.000 there's a quote that's often attributed to Picasso.
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:59.000 I think, who was once asked about computers and said computers are useless thing, or to give answers to just to close your house.
00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:16.000 And I sort of reading the same section so on page page 61 where he's finishing this one section also about how the Europeans responded to this critique from Americans on the native yield they used the word Americans for a
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:26.000 young. When the French came over here they met Americans, you know, and so there was this tremendous critique, which then stimulated a huge pushback.
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:43.000 The lesson sense at the end. Here says and it's like you know that the people, the American kids, really were into how can we build organizes their lives to minimize the possibility of one human being becomes subordinated to the will of
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:53.000 another. People have autonomy and freedom even if they didn't have a lot of wealth, you know, some like the Jesuits condemned the principle of freedom outright.
00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:03.000 So this came up for me this week, it's like It's just how deep being raised as just in the United States.
00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:15.000 How deep this idea is in almost everything we think, the way we create laws, the way we organize our businesses, the way we just think about.
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:20.000 You know they'll take a walk in the neighborhood or what it is to have a neighborhood.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:29.000 So I find this book to be extremely for me, powerful and just keeping me asking questions about.
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:35.000 Why do I always, you know, think things, Larry? This is the way things are.
00:54:35.000 --> 00:55:00.000 Thanks, Bill. Maybe that's a good place to close thanks everybody stay in touch on the mattermost.
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