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00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:15.000 but my number I'm really grateful and this is the first dawn of everything, book circle, March, 20 fifth, 2022 go for it.
00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:24.000 Trevor. Yeah. So I wanted to talk to more i've never got a chance.
00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:38.000 Moral modalities say in chapter 5 of debt the first 5,000 years, he he says: Well, human beings operate in these different moral frameworks, which they switch between all the time.
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:46.000 And he described one of them as communism which is like a red rag to a little light.
00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:53.000 That's really bad terminology don't say that to a red blooded American, because they're going to freak out
00:00:53.000 --> 00:01:00.000 But what it meant was offering support to other human beings without any expectation of reward.
00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:06.000 You recognize what they need, and you give it where no questions are asked.
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:14.000 You know, which is pretty fun about the stuff. Then he talked about exchange, mostly doing deals between strangers.
00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:19.000 Then he talked about hierarchy, people exaggerating power.
00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:33.000 Being in a power structure, and I wanted to talk to him about that, because I think there's 2 other ones that you completely missed, and and I think that's quite interesting.
00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:42.000 Because I think I mean the book is brilliant because it shows what the possible.
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:49.000 You know the range of possibilities of the way that human beings are capable of organizing their affairs.
00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:56.000 Elos, also extraordinary for interesting ways and it's a marked contrast to the usual.
00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:11.000 You know no who you you know. you're a youthful Arari Steven Pinker, with this kind of bogus Ori or Karl Marx, cover that with these kind of bogus ideas that things follow
00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:19.000 strict evolutionary cycles becoming more advanced, I usually buy weird coincidence.
00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:26.000 Arriving, or where you are the the one overarching message of the book is clearly appealed to human agency.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:34.000 It's it's about saying we create the world we inhabit, and we have choice.
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:47.000 We have. we have options and we have choices and yeah we're not determined. and of course, and at some point in the end he makes the point that the in the way social science trying to be a science and trying to be
00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:54.000 predictive and trying to be almost has a bias towards finding the rules and finding determinants.
00:02:54.000 --> 00:03:12.000 And predisposed to this regard agency. as a human agency as a prime determinant that was fascinating as the 2 kind of mid methodological assertion.
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:21.000 But the the whole not only is another word possible it's happened, and it could happen again. and it's on us.
00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:38.000 Yes, yeah, yeah, very much. And I find it really interesting to be reading this book. just partly because i've got this whole intersection between a possibility of my working actively in a role that faces.
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:49.000 You know, big challenge you know what's happening with technology and people and the case at which it's happening in blockchain and in social media and such at the school of cybernetics.
00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:54.000 So i'm deeply interested because i've always worked on human-centered design.
00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:07.000 And you know this agency of, us being able, to optimize systems towards ourselves, and then find that we've actually cut ourselves off at the ankles or Nasa or hips, if you like because, we've been so good, at some of
00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:15.000 that design. And then, you know, seeking to find the big patterns behind things where perhaps that has got a flavor of determinism.
00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:22.000 You know this is the pattern. If you do it this way it ends up in that particular outcome.
00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:30.000 To to listen to Graber going on in an it's sort of right and amusing way in some ways.
00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:34.000 It's definitely got a flavor of hitchhiker's guide to the gal galaxy in tone.
00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:43.000 Just going back to the beginnings that we can find and I guess in some ways everyone imposes a patent on, and he's definitely doing that.
00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:50.000 But it's at least him closing a pattern that perhaps is a backstory that we can't understand, because there's pieces that are missing.
00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:03.000 But but it seems that humans have been experimenting with this more or less in an aware way, for the longest time, and we keep on believing that we've got you know we've got that we've got the pattern now we
00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:08.000 know exactly how this works. They keep on forgetting that things zigzag a lot.
00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:15.000 According to particular circumstances, that all these experimenters have been in.
00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:28.000 So i'm enjoying the take on that I haven't read the last part of the book, but I like the fact to ever that you're bringing in some of the other lenses that of grabber grabber's work
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:46.000 but also, you know this I think each of us have probably got some other influences that i'd like to use to, and uses a sort of counterpoint to his writing, so that i'm not jumping straight into a river and i'm using
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:51.000 it wisely, as a sort of point in my own work.
00:05:51.000 --> 00:06:00.000 At the moment. So i'm really happy also to see you class. I haven't met you, and everywhere and Bill with not spoken about this.
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:10.000 But I know you're interested i'm thinking that we go for an hour today.
00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.000 I think we'll probably end up meeting and we don't have to all be the same people.
00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:20.000 We'll probably have another call next wednesday maybe Thursday in Australia.
00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.000 And so for part of this call not doesn't have to be all of it.
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:35.000 But it would be interesting to talk about kind of meta stuff how we how we stay together, what you know what's the what are, what our our shared goals, those kinds of things.
00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:42.000 But I love that. we kind of just jumped straight into it, too.
00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:50.000 If if people have questions, maybe put them in chat, or maybe put them on the hack.
00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:55.000 Md. are we? are. We have a hack in this.
00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:59.000 We do, and i'll post the the url again.
00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:09.000 Oh, yeah, I see it. Yes, I I have seen a few people do a kind of chapter by chapter.
00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:19.000 Kind of reading notes and French i'm just putting it in here it's a blog, but I don't know.
00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:29.000 I think maybe we should go one chapter at a time However, I don't know if i'll do it twice a week, so twice that we won't do twice a week.
00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:40.000 But as we get started I there were people who found out about about the the reading circle, too late to make today's meeting, so we'll give another shot.
00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:45.000 I'm not yeah next Wednesday is probably the next call but I don't.
00:07:45.000 --> 00:08:03.000 I don't know that we'll really get into meeting as a group, or whatever, until maybe the week after that So is that to say, then we are jumping in at the moment, and then becoming more methodical when what people know about the
00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:06.000 broken and joining from the beginning and they don't miss chapter one.
00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:22.000 There's also I mean it's quite a long book I Guess that's setting an intention of you know 12 weeks of study around one book with a sort of entry point some people who are you know potentially a bit
00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:29.000 enthusiastic. Now is a chapter a week that that sounds a little aggressive to me.
00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:38.000 I mean, i'm proposing making chapters available We could have one chapter every Other Week and meet every other Week.
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:48.000 I I like that. i'm not about youville oh, and discovered over my lifetime.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:09:04.000 Minima slow reader, and I'm. taking my time with a book like this, and only reading several pages, and then perhaps noting a couple of things and then thinking about it.
00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:09.000 So I am not. I mean, not gonna speed. Read it.
00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:20.000 No, because I won't really get for me i'll get an enormous amount out of what happens together, and I will probably end up being 3 chapters behind y'all.
00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:30.000 You know a good width I would say that the one thing I want to say for me to what wendy said. Hmm.
00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:45.000 I'm not so much worried about reading counterpoints to what graver and one going I have to say, because I believe I have been taught that my entire life i'm actually trying to get questions about why do I think
00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:49.000 this way about. You know this is the way things are should be done.
00:09:49.000 --> 00:10:01.000 Click so i'm trying to my own life trainer kind of like traces unlearn some things that I just didn't. Hmm.
00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:07.000 You know. Question to let you know I mean I was formally trained as a and physicists and stuff.
00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:15.000 So I have a certain you know here's how you do it or here's how you build a model of new blah blah blah!
00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:29.000 But i'm still interested in what Greyer onebrow has to question, because I think that's where the juices There's one short story that also came up my wife was an anthropologist she worked at
00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:34.000 Zerox Park number years. She was there for a long time, and she had one of the Cs people.
00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:42.000 She got 3 really friends, and they asked her one day what's it like to be a social scientist, because that's to give you an impression about that, Susan.
00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:52.000 She goes i've studied the humanities you know my work is in the humanities.
00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:58.000 So the social, social social science thing is like. So there is.
00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:04.000 And I think that Drebber Windrow are trying to push at that.
00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:12.000 Yeah, step out of the You know the normal way that we try and reduce everything.
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:19.000 Yeah, I one of the things like physics it's like what very well, yeah.
00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:39.000 I mean one of the things that's striking about the book is that and obviously debt the 5 first 5,000 years, Because, look in there in the background, saying, I mean there there's a saying which I think is very funny
00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:45.000 economists in particular, suffer from physics ending. Yeah.
00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:49.000 So they try to pretend that what they're doing is like physics.
00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:58.000 So they dress it up in all sorts of statistical stuff and complicated mathematical formula and stuff, just because that makes them feel like.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:01.000 In actual fact, it's a bit like if you're an anthropologist.
00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:08.000 You would, You would be amused if you went somewhere. Where have you heard of cargo colts?
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:20.000 Yeah, where does everybody know what a cargo call is because again this was a kind of think that low loads of anthropologists love stuff?
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:39.000 It's about is it. Melanes, in islands in in the Pacific, near Milanese, or if somewhere out in the island, chains in the Pacific, where in the second World war suddenly Americans turned up Bill runways like
00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:44.000 an airplanes landed and unloaded all this stuff.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:13:03.000 The locals had never seen anything like this, because they were sort of just mind their own business, searching, burning, and and doing their own thing before these weird people turned up doing all this strange stuff, and some of the kind of shamans try to
00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:17.000 work out the theory of what the hell was going on, and they worked out that first of all, their mythology said that their ancestors have founded the place where we had wired skins.
00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:21.000 So first they thought, the ancestors have turned up.
00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:31.000 But then they started to discover These people were treating really badly, and they were all getting all these goodies from his aircraft.
00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:37.000 But the local people were being treated like dirt and forced to work for nothing, burning these runways and stuff.
00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:42.000 So so they turn it into a kind of millionaireing coal. Where they went.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:56.000 They came to conclusion that that the radio guy in the radio shack you caught up and an aeroplane and carved out of all this stuff in it, and they worked out that he was communicating with Jesus because they'd they'd met a few missionaries
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:11.000 and got a bit confused about things I don't know they were calling on Jesus, and Jesus was giving all these gifts to them, and if they were, if they may have all stopped working for these crazy people and went out into the jungle and
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:28.000 cleared a runway and built a radio shot and and did what the people in the radio show appeared to be doing that these planes will come down with all these goods and it's known as the cargo cop and what's really interesting
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:35.000 about it is that the figures we became powerful by doing that some anthropologists turned up as today.
00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:48.000 We're gonna take you to America and show you factories and how this stuff is all done, and then and then you can come back and explain it.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000 People, but when they came back they thought, Hang on! let me like.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:15:04.000 Why am I going to explain that Because if that's all true my power over my tribe evaporates like that, and my status since, say is gone, so i'm not going to do that so.
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:09.000 So to align. I mean the reason for turning the story is because first of all, it's it's magic stuff.
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:24.000 I mean it's, just brilliant. but I think that when we look at other civilizations and other cultures. we are acting like cargo cult people, because we don't really know what they're doing Why, they are doing
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:35.000 it. We try to understand it through our own. but we don't really get it at all. and everybody agenda is something completely different that mostly we never understand.
00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:42.000 Yeah, I think that comes out very strongly in the stories about all these different cultures.
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:50.000 Nerve existence are in that book so we don't really know what, what, why they were doing, what they were doing, and what it meant to them.
00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:59.000 Why they built is extraordinary monuments yeah i've completely tacky in in whatever is called in in turkey.
00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:09.000 When they build these stone temples, when before the invention of agriculture, like thousands of years before, they were just hunter galleries, and they all turned up.
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:21.000 And these amazing parties and built these stone temples I mean like Whoa! And this was not known until the 1,900 ninetys, and it freaked everybody out because it's something realized.
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:34.000 Oh, right! People have been building sophisticated temples with alignments to the the movements of our planets and all sorts of stuff like that, since before they even invented agriculture.
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:38.000 So the stuff about you have to invent agriculture before you can start burning.
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.000 Stone angel. It just isn't true and that's pretty exciting.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:51.000 I think that's really exciting hmm i'm going to show up because i'm dominated the conversation.
00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:08.000 But those are things that interested me there's a lot to take in. There's a someone's writing has turned up in the yarning work that I've been doing which is and this is a person's observation on that they said there's something
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:25.000 that's wrong about trying even trying to understand something through somebody else's culture, that it's going to end up broken and bad, because you just don't have the entry point and you can struggle But there's something off that ends
00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:39.000 up happening. i'll find the name of the person who's writing that person referred to as but it's it's sort of deeply problematic really in some ways is like you stretch put yourself into this other person's view but you've really got to
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:49.000 come back richly to your own history to be able to even understand what you're seeing at all.
00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:59.000 Yeah, so you've got to like I think it's in any in your piece sort of concept. but that's not at all where the writing came from, and i'll find that the person but that the idea is that Yes, you can put yourself
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:12.000 in somebody else's view and try and understand it but you have to be really deeply rooted in your own history in your own way of knowing, and come back absolutely solidly to that and if you've if you've
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:24.000 stretched yourself very widely between all the other ones you still absolutely have to be not concrete, but organic in why you know how and how you know what you know from your own.
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:37.000 Perspective, and there's a lot of challenge that we have partly because we've got access to so many other people's ways of knowing with books and videos and all the rest of it, and that something about the
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:44.000 indigenous perspective, and of actually standing in our own culture and really richly understanding that.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:50.000 And it's pretty confusing, but more importantly knowing on your own soil.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:57.000 How you you know things and that that's great if you're a wells person who was born in wales and always lived there.
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:04.000 If you someone who's moved between different cultures you become this sort of Creole of everything, and it's really hard to come back to your own roots.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:12.000 So the phrase this whole discussion came on. What am I roots, you know, coming back to your roots as a phrase in Welsh.
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:22.000 Come back to my trees was the phrase and and I think that we we get really confused because we can't now make patterns because we've visited all these other places.
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:27.000 And come back with the story of the cargo coal now i'm standing in my own spot.
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:33.000 I don't know who I am anymore. and I don't know why I know what I know it's richer.
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.000 Did you know? I mean I live 45 min from Wales.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:44.000 So if I want to go abroad i've just got a drive about 45 min, and crossed the river 10 river 7 on my last big suspension of Britain I'm.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:56.000 In a foreign land, hey? But do you know all the world Welsh actually means what the etymology of is? It's the old English for foreign.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:01.000 So when a Welshman says I welsh he's actually saying, I'm 4!
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:13.000 But but most Welsh Beef we've forgotten that that's actually what it means, which tells you something about the relationship between the English and the Welsh.
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:22.000 Ha! which has always been very interesting and complex but it's just very, very funny that they're calling themselves for us.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Well, they call themselves ringers in English. I wonder what the Welsh word for Welsh is in Welsh.
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Interesting questions. I don't know the answer actually it's a good question.
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000 I can spell it but I can't say it wendy you said you're yarning work, and and I don't want to take a long time on it. but can you tell us a little bit what what you mean by
00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:58.000 yearning. Okay, So the unique position I mean at the moment is at least for 90 min sessions held between 2 Welsh people.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:14.000 Dave Snowden and Bed Smith and indigenous people from Australia, Papua, New Guinea, New Zealand, and Turtle Islands, and these people were all hands selected because they have got deep roots in their
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:19.000 own country problematically and interestingly, both Beth and well.
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:29.000 Dave Snowden, not living in wales, although both were born there, and they're representing a celtic take on being indigenous.
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:44.000 One of the other people who regularly in these conversations, and and perhaps being the moderator, if there was one Tyson young to Porter, who runs the indigenous knowledge systems lab at ticket Deckon university,
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:57.000 and amazing intellect, and he's the author of the book Sand talk, and then the last position or 2 positions are held by other people who have specific knowledge of their own indigenous roots.
00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:15.000 And the Turtle Island Lady is and has now returned to country and country is the word in Australia that we and original people use for their embeddedness in the land. in everything that they know will do or say it's their sort
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:27.000 of their way of standing in their trees as beth said So i've got the privilege of of these conversations word by word, and Pete and I are publishing them on for websites.
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:41.000 And what's turning up is really intriguing and it's the intersection between these different cultures that they're feeling for, and i'm just driven when I I hear and he had the story that
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:54.000 David grayber's telling i'm always drawn to exactly that challenge that we can never be in the time and space where those societies that he's retelling the story of could is telling a narrative
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:58.000 it's a it's a it's weaving of the past.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:04.000 It's not the story going forwards for the person who was doing the thing in building the village or building that their society.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:09.000 It was, you know, cutting the grain, or finding the fox, or whatever it is.
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:15.000 We we're retelling something from our own perspective, and you cannot lose that.
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:27.000 You can never lose that it's not possible. to visit another land, and then come back exactly as you were so as we do all of this. we're traveling through other people's lands.
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:35.000 His story, which is a massive story. so I guess i've gone off, pissed a little bit.
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:49.000 But these yarns are life-changing I would have to say, because they're dealing with things like, you know, mining, that we don't actually own often the land that we stand on even though we think we do and where that
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:57.000 goes, and there's so many things that can be learned from these yarns, but essential to that is country.
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:02.000 This either, where you stand as you do the building in your moment.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:08.000 Transporting yourself as a foreigner from the few back into that moment.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:14.000 That is deeply problematic, however nicely and relevantly you do it.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:34.000 So I want to learn from this book, and that I want don't want this book to be my only view, because if I do that, then I've lost the game, and the game is trying to know but being yourself, potentially thanks vanny class You've
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:55.000 got your handout. Yeah, I do. So I mean, I was reading my way into E into the book on a more general level. What what is this?
00:24:55.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Trying to convey here my personal lens. Then I think we need to put on a lens through which we review this book, because otherwise we were going to walk in the wilderness here as we are already doing the the the lands
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:18.000 that that I look That looks so is when like amazing trouble.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:25.000 Right now, right? I mean the the political systems, the the Tati way.
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:41.000 Our societies are structured and organized, is is hugely problematic, and and does not seem to offer a pathway into a sustainable future.
00:25:41.000 --> 00:26:01.000 So we're looking to what would work I mean how do you make this thing work in ways where we we can learn from our pathway our history, and apply that in ways that may translate into today's world and so the the area of
00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:06.000 indictment was probably the most advanced period in the way we would.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.000 Thinking about? what is human nature? Who are we as a species?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.000 How do we function? What motivates us? How do we?
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:19.000 How do we? How do we organize ourselves in the most efficient way?
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:29.000 And there was this one thought that it has to be incentive-based, meaning capitalism provides incentives, incentive structures.
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:39.000 You know that guide people to do the right thing to do, to develop, to invent, to, to build.
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:56.000 But then come, karl marx and he's been and he's saying that this kind of capitalism based on human nature the way we are will lead to decent consequences and obviously he was right. because that's exactly the are he predicted
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:01.000 that it puts a question all in all equipment, and all the companies and monopolies, and so on.
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Centralization of power and wealth. So the question is, where do you go?
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:21.000 You know if if that doesn't work and then of course you had, you know, the idea of a centralized people driven system like Communism, and that was a complete disaster that didn't even begin to work, because it it could not
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:40.000 consolidate direction in ways that was productive and leading leading into into a decentralized and supportive system. So so that's that's my lens right So I So i'm so fascinated to understand
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:54.000 historically. What would we learn from this book that we don't already know, you know, form better form the error of enlightenment thinkers, or from a humaneville Harari, who you know documents the evolution of
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:58.000 our species. What is there that we can take out of this?
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:05.000 You know, that would help us 2 to understand. How can we decentralize power?
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:19.000 Localized power in ways that is still centrally supported. but locally adaptive, and and between So that's what why centrally supported, I would ask.
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:26.000 But just just one thing i'd like to come and you said, What can we learn from this book that we didn't get from Harari at all?
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.000 I would say, What can we unlearn from this book?
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:35.000 This book is about unlearning a lot of the stuff we've learned.
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:44.000 I mean there is a theory of elements of power and limits of freedom which i'm eager to be for us to get into.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:56.000 But so much of the book is about possibility and unlearning what we thought were fatalities.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:05.000 I i'm okay with unlearning learning learning I mean That's it.
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:18.000 All works. The reason why we need to maintain some form of centrality is that knowledge is is centrally has to be sent for the available right.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.000 You can't learn how to farm which generatively in every community.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:26.000 I mean that knowledge is there, and so you have to be able to share knowledge.
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:33.000 You have to be able to share core resources instead of replicating them at the local level.
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:39.000 Central versus iterated well, federated that's fine but this is the federated, not Central.
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:50.000 It's what you say. I would not say so Yeah, Okay, and situated that situatedness of knowledge is really important.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:58.000 Yeah. So there's a lovely book on on sort of tricksters and gestures, and the situatedness of knowledge.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:02.000 Fabulous book. i'll find these titles as we'll go through.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:14.000 But you know a lot of things that we discovered can only be seen in the code of objects, you know they were embodied because they didn't have writing systems, and so you get maps of shells.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:19.000 You know, that are literally maps of of a local island system.
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:23.000 For example, and you can't just take that out of fact, and plunk it into someone else.
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:31.000 Someone else's environment, because they don't you know the materiality that the whole construction is just so foreign to the people.
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:40.000 It doesn't mean that that they don't create naps but those, anyway, the the using the materials and all those things are actually part of the knowledge of systems.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:51.000 It's actually you've got to be in those worlds with those items to be out of, even understand what the knowledge artifact that you have in front of you is even when it's been sanitized through words and
00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:05.000 and lots of other systems of knowing that's what I was sort of leading with It's this country piece, and to stand in somebody else's country, and understand the difference between a rainforest and desert you sort of got to be in the desert and you've
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:09.000 got to sort of be in the rainforest to see the difference. you know.
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:22.000 No words, no, no picture, no, nothing would actually help you really understand it except for being in that place, and that's deeply problematic when we're trying to transport ourselves back in history and reconstruct stuff that didn't exist or
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:29.000 did exist. So, anyway, and we're trying to transport ourselves to a future at the same time.
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:41.000 So class. I get what you're saying about the centralized knowledge. There are people that are mixed around with have been involved in permaculture for the longest time, and
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.000 They know that you can give someone the kernel of an idea.
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:49.000 But that idea is going to be completely different when placed in their own time and space with their own materials.
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:53.000 It's really important to let them know that they will figure it out.
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:58.000 You just have to not tell them what their idea should be all the way through.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:03.000 You've just got to say you can do something different and here's something we did.
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:06.000 Now you take that idea to your own land, your own country.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Send in who you are, what you've got around you and just give it a go.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:19.000 So this emergence piece is is really scary because you've you want to say, do X.
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:26.000 But doing x can actually end up very badly for them they've got actually trix in their own place.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:32.000 So it's almost like we're seating tiny little experiments everywhere, where everyone just has their own version of X.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:38.000 And then they come back, and that knowledge is shared in a in a generative way.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:48.000 I think, with other people. but we can't tell them that X is the only solution, because until that was that was exactly my point.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:53.000 Yeah. but you have. You have a toolbox that is central. that is available.
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:57.000 Yeah, and locally, you can locally say look i'm in California. I'm.
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:02.000 In Florida I mean the high desert. is there?
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:08.000 What what other best practice examples are there, you know, that are comparable to my scenario.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:17.000 My situation, so you can pull together marches of knowing, know, and and and assemble them into a customized approach for your local situation.
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:29.000 The question is, how do you create a political structure, a power structure that an enables this exchange, and that prevents the monopolistic systems that you currently have.
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:35.000 For farming from this serving now they did this as a single approach that currently see I'm.
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:45.000 I'm. halfway through the book and and I know that my cantoons got much closer to the end. but if I was to say there's a seasonality to knowledge this is a crossover between the yarning
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:58.000 stuff and what grab is saying that there's a seasonality to power structures that we've lost because we've big guts we've got so good at ruling out the environments that we're in through our designs
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:15.000 so no longer do we have the summer in winter, and in the way that indigenous people and people earlier on in, you know, earlier societies they actually evolved different power structures for different seasons. So when it was winter you had to have a power
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:22.000 structure. you could all survive being closed up for X amount of time, and it was different to the one that they had.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:33.000 When you can go out and and just you know with summer and and the world was had different impositions on you, and you had had to have a different power structure for that.
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:46.000 And we've moved the seasonality of powers lost to us now, and because well, we assume that we can control all the scenarios, and we're sort of like, Okay, i'll just turn on the air conditioner and it
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.000 will be warm when I needed to be warm and cold. Would I need it to be cold?
00:34:49.000 --> 00:35:05.000 And so we I think we've lost that fluidity of the power structures we've got this one for winter and this one for summer, because we've you know, got very comfortable and good at controlling environments around us and now we've discovered
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:10.000 that we Maybe can't control it as much as we thought and we're having to deal with big floods and big big droughts.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:27.000 So I that's where i'm at at the moment in this book is that i'm i'm forced to think, how could knowledge systems, and how could power structures deal with this these big orders of change where it's hey?
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.000 It's all wet we don't need to have dams oh, hey!
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:40.000 It's all dry where are the dams and you're just jumping between the 2, and the reality of that in Australia is stock, you know, 3 years ago.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:56.000 It's like where's the water coming from and since then we've had incredible flies, and incredible floods in fast rotation, and people are saying they just get confused about what they can do Anyway, i'm curious there's a lot I could say I
00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:01.000 don't want to ruin this opportunity so I think bill you're up next.
00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:10.000 So class. I really appreciate what you said and I about having basically some lens in grounding.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:15.000 The one question has come up for me, i'm only on page 39, which is like only in chapter 2.
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:24.000 And the thing for for me. This book is Esk actually asking a question to what you said about the enlightenment.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:33.000 Is that maybe perhaps the enlightenment is just not all that we have cracked it up to be and I'm.
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:39.000 Reading another book by Amatav gosh who's an Indian author, but he's been writing about climate change.
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:51.000 He has a book called the Great arrangement climate change and you're unthinkable, and I read this book 2 times, and what he says in there is that Harnet, what's holding us back is that we are unable to
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:57.000 think about what it is that has brought us here, he said. People keep thinking.
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:14.000 Well, you know, everyone can have you know a house with air conditioning he's like No. the kind of lifestyle and is, you know, I've been able to enjoy here in the United States is not available to every human being on the
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:19.000 planet today. Given the way, we, it will have little more literally.
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:32.000 Here in Texas power. Our lives the So for me the book is really more about asking that questioning called, and i'm just gonna like for me when I read a book like this.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:41.000 I'm just gonna put their pair. of glasses Now, i'm just gonna read through it. Then i'm going to come out at the other end and go like, why is the world really like that?
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:51.000 But everybody has the wrong sales. So i'm willing to yeah not be critical is more of trying to put really do think that they're trying to say you know.
00:37:51.000 --> 00:38:08.000 Let's can we imagine something different which I mean yeah One of the themes of the Neo liberal thing I've read this 1050 years ago, when an article a new electrode. view I had never known it but people called it
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:11.000 and you, like you, had to your title phrase.
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:30.000 There is no alternative to the neoliberal market but literally that this is I'm like wait what So anyway, I'm looking for this book to just you know, I'm just gonna sort of like you said you know, it marries a certain
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:43.000 unlearning here, and mmm i'm for it i'll let you know where I am. not Trevor.
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:55.000 Yeah, I was gonna does it bill's picked up on some of the points I was gonna make about what class say Hope I've pronounced an incorrect.
00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:06.000 By the way, else yeah, because actually, being a pride, may British person and I do have a degree in theology and philosophy as well.
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:10.000 By the way, I have never found in livelihood.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:27.000 Thinkers in the list bit impressive. And there is a strong British tradition, because basically just about all of our enemies that we spent a lot of time trying to try to cut and invade us some conquerors actually come from an enlightenment
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:30.000 thinking background so like, Why are we going to be impressed with that?
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:36.000 You know the Napoleon, and frankly, you know the enlightenment thinkers.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:50.000 Yeah, we assume that's they're all great but actually a lot of the stuff they came out with is deeply flawed, and it produced the sort of pseudo-science of things like
00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:03.000 Eugenics the kind of craziness of the idea that his own Iraqi racism that women are inferior to men, and the white men are sort of evolutionarily entitled to throw their way around and all that
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:10.000 stuff comes out in like thinking. Sorry, but it does and it's quite ugly.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:16.000 And one of the other things i'm going to pick up on Yeah.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:33.000 So one of the things that's right is this is really clear when you read the book I have finished reading book, and I also know a lot of history is the idea of human beings being in control and being able to make progress and improve
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:40.000 society did not exist until it was invented. in seventeenth century.
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:46.000 England. Hmm! Nobody else had even thought of the idea and nobody thought that at all.
00:40:46.000 --> 00:41:03.000 It's a totally alien idea send everybody else on the planet, except the descendants of what we call maladity, which actually starts the conversation between the the English and their colonies in North America.
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:09.000 Almost all of it takes place in the seventeenth century before anybody's died.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:18.000 Ryan enlightenment's thinking stuff in the in the last core of the eighteenth century, where most people think modernity starts because of the French Revolution and the American Revolution.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:22.000 I'm sorry it just isn't so it's very poor history.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:37.000 One of the things that's refreshing about the book is, it says, Yeah, people must do all sorts of extraordinary things without those assumptions, because they didn't have those assumptions at all Thanks.
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:52.000 Trevor. money. I think I think you should go and Then I want to come back to just just for a couple minutes, Wendy, and then I want to come back to just how do we work together?
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:55.000 And we'll finish out the hour that way human center design.
00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:59.000 I've been involved in this in the longest time so this assumption that you can control.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:11.000 You know if that that everything sentence on humans is deeply problematic, because if you take that to its natural extreme and you're really efficient at it, and we are you know i'm staring and i'm deeply
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:23.000 immersed in. I guess the intersection between systems, complex, seductive systems, Cybernetics, now human-centered design have done for 40 years worth of it.
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:29.000 When you're really good at controlling your environment that actually has an outcome.
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:44.000 If you scale it up, and you keep on scaling it up without actually taking into context the fact that you are deeply immersed in in a natural world which will bite back at you if your designs are not systematic enough so
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:50.000 we keep on putting science in trying to understand and control our worlds.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:43:01.000 And then what happens is we've just let that run away from us to a point that our world the technologies that we've done are actually redesigning us in ways that we don't want socially.
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:08.000 And social media, but also we now and this this whole there's a lot of indigenous people are saying, Hey, we know stuff.
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:14.000 We've done things for you know thousands and thousands and thousands of years 1790,000 is one.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:21.000 It't you pay attention to what we learned which i'm reading into part of what grab is doing.
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:28.000 So. Yes, this idea of coming back to country and not just seeing that there are other animate things that have agency around you.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:40.000 Some of it's a deep reach that this rock has agency or this plant has agency; that there are families of animals, and that it isn't just about humans, is really hard.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:45.000 When you, your you come from human-centered design that we can control everything.
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:53.000 So I love what i'm hearing and I do agree that you know we have to let go of some of our ability to control everything.
00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:02.000 Yes. so thank you very much for insights on that one bill. I think that we've done we've been experimenting forever.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:09.000 But now we're actually experiencing where that goes and we've got to be perhaps less human-centric about some of it.
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:15.000 And Jackie said something along. I know whoever it was, about the Indian person and reading that book.
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:25.000 Anyway, I want to revisit this conversation. recording things is important. Thanks.
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:31.000 Thanks. Wendy, I think that's amateav Kosh Bill mentioned.
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:46.000 Thanks and and we've got that in the notes so let's let's close the the content stuff, even though it would be super fun to keep talking about it for a while.
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:50.000 And let's talk about how to work together i'm gonna share my screen real quick.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:04.000 So you can see something that some of us are doing as as this meeting is unfolded, we've taken down some notes and organized a tiny bit.
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:15.000 So this is something that a few of us will keep doing i'm sure as we as we continue to work on Zoom calls I think so.
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:23.000 Everybody, except maybe Trevor is is on Csc. and probably in the the Channel.
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So i'm a little bit torn I know that we're We're probably going to get kevin Jones and Stacy juice, and maybe Jerry and maybe some other folks i'm a little bit torn about whether
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.000 we should set up some other channel as well as the mattermost channel.
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:42.000 But I think enough of us are there that maybe that's a maybe that's enough.
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:54.000 I was wondering if we should also do an email list which I don't really want to do It also occurs to me that I think some of the work that we that we need to do should be asynchronous rather
00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:01.000 than just always in zoom calls. So I can kind of imagine something, I I guess.
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:05.000 Actually, the first thing I imagine is on that mattermost channel.
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.000 Trevor. This is a chat system that I can get.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:14.000 You up on. Oh, cool i've i've used met the most for other things, so that would be cool.
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:21.000 I. I imagine that even some of the ways figuring out how we work together will be something that we do on the Chat Channel.
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:26.000 You know how much should we do? Zoom calls versus how much we do, you know in chat?
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:31.000 I will be having this page, and then other pages on a wiki.
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:34.000 I think some of us will be working on that wiki together.
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:45.000 It's the Wiki website thing want to talk real quick while we're all in voice space synchronous space about.
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:56.000 I I would recommend that everything we that we published everything that we do, which I'm a little bit torn by actually this might be better as a as a close thing.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:59.000 But I think maybe it's okay, if it's an open thing.
00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:04.000 So then, if we publish everything, I want to understand how we feel about licensing it.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:12.000 And what I would suggest is that we make it creative comments with attribution, which is a very non restrictive license.
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:27.000 It means that anybody can take our stuff, we publish it as long as they give us attribution. and in this case it would be at you know, Don, of everything book circle team or something like that who consists of these people who've contributed
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:32.000 to the conversation. Are folks comfortable with that, or at both?
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:41.000 Both things. so we'd be private and people can join and we kind of keep everything closed within there, or should we be open.
00:47:41.000 --> 00:48:02.000 And then, if we're open what's the the rule for the licensing, I don't have a strong opinion, I just feel you know I don't know if this will be publication, quality, we're exploring
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:15.000 we're discussing I don't think think I expect to get great conclusions, and I worry about having my name attached to something that were too definitive.
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:23.000 Actually because it's like may or may not agree with it which is should won't matter if it's just explorations, and would, if it's.
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:32.000 This is our position on this book I I if you're Okay, so that So that's a reason to keep it not published. right?
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:37.000 I think it's actually better for the world if it's published publishing it.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:46.000 But just if it's clear that it's exploration yeah, So so then it what that brings to mind is down with the license.
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:58.000 It also should say something like, You know this is the opinions expressed are not held by everybody, and this is not, you know, finished academic quality work is just us in conversation.
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:11.000 Yeah, I think that's for me very important that we don't try and come to conclusions because we've got any other 10 people that would change and improve the quality of our discussion.
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:19.000 But it's like all those the main point that I think Grab is making is that there were a lot of experiments over a very long period of time.
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:23.000 We're just trying to condense our own verbal experiments around his.
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:29.000 Take on what he sees, and that's gonna keep on changing it should.
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:46.000 But I think you should not underestimate the value that for individuals who actually need to come to some shape, because if their work they will at least have a richer starting point, which I think is the gift agreement that's cool we are also
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:51.000 called i'm i'm gonna suggest something i've been thinking about some zoom calls.
00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:07.000 I I love so many of us are in a number of group calls together, and I love the calls that are is personally I especially love emergent calls, where i'm totally surprised by what happens.
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:16.000 How, however, they can lack a feeling of productivity. We can talk about this more on on the Channel.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:22.000 But i'm going to suggest that when we have a call we have an agenda, you know, today we're brainstorming questions.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:31.000 The big questions. today we're examining the factors that led to grabber's discussion.
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:43.000 And chapter, you know x y z so instead of having regular calls where we kind of get together, and we kind of mush around.
00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:50.000 I would much I would feel better if we're if we can come to consensus, you know, in the Channel a week before, and then say, okay.
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:54.000 The next call is going to be, You know pretty much on this topic, and we can get a little bit, Harry.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:00.000 I don't have a problem with that but I think being you know oriented towards productivity.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000 It's gonna help us feel better help us get more done Yeah, and I don't think it should be linear so.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:13.000 I think a lot of us come with a huge amount of knowledge even though we're up to just chapter one you can just jump in with extraordinary value.
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:18.000 And and think it would just make perhaps people keen to move through the book.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:30.000 And understand that you know even if they're the chapter one they're still welcome if there's a theme they'll bring something that's useful, and other people further through the book we'll be able to say you know in
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:33.000 this later chapter You can jump to that if you like it's not gonna harm.
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:40.000 You're thinking, I don't maybe frame you thinking a little bit as you read it further, we'll just get richer and richer.
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.000 Yeah, I don't want to do linear I don't do chapter, one chapter, 2, chapter, 3.
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:55.000 We can refer to them all, if you've read them and maybe not, if you haven't well, I don't think it's mutually exclusive, and that each chapter has themes so we could you make sure that we go
00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:00.000 through themes a bit in chapter order. so we can have the best of both worlds.
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:10.000 Yeah, no, that's fair enough. I just try yeah we call Maybe each call has kind of 2 things you know a special theme.
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:18.000 And and this this the linear theme they're all some cards. I mean it's like Bible starting right.
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:24.000 You have people who have been reading one chapter at a time for their entire lifetime, and still don't get what this seems all about.
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:39.000 And so there's a risk going. chapter by chapter stab was an umbrella, and didn't fill in the unprecedented needs, and a lot of modern publishing allows you to jump backwards and forwards too, when you
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.000 want to explore something that turns up in a richer way later on.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:46.000 And you know Grabber himself? says we're going to explore this later right?
00:52:46.000 --> 00:53:02.000 Can I read that now. yes, and there's also something going on, too, about the way he's taken on this long form, and the rice style and other bits and pieces. but that's sort of like a meta discussion something about how
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.000 he structured this piece of knowledge as a sort of steady build.
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:11.000 If that makes sense because it's a steady build it's this form that he's using.
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:24.000 But I don't want that to overtake this because a lot of people won't read anything at all some people are just not reading books which I think is a conversation that we need to have, because if you want people to get
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:34.000 what's in this book. there's a long journey you've got to take them on, and you might need to use some short hand to get them there to give them an experience of some of the stuff in the book if we are no you
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:41.000 can't expect everybody to sit and read like this I partly I mean it's true.
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:48.000 Some people are not reading book. This is a book reading circle, so I expect people to read the book where i'm with you is we should not make it mandatory.
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:53.000 If you think you have something to say to the chapters theme just come.
00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:06.000 You don't have to have read the book but I don't mind, I think expectation that people are reading, if not this book.
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:13.000 Some books about whatever topic is in each after but yeah it's It's a very narrative forum.
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:18.000 I find it's fascinating how makes the scholarship narrative.
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:39.000 It's it's it's beautiful that way but there's a lot of chapters which are quote unquote supporting like he has an overall thesis about freedom and that means deconstructing a lot
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:43.000 of specific theories of determinism. A lot of chapters are there to show.
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:49.000 Well, here is evidence. why this deterministic theory doesn't hold and here's evidence.
00:54:49.000 --> 00:55:06.000 Why that deterministic theory, doesn't hold and and this is why this is, I said, This book is not so much what we learned, but with the unlearn, and in a in a way, I think, the the succession of chapters
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:12.000 is less important than the overall impression of not this.
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.000 Not that not this. Not that you know it's it's a very epidictic book.
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:22.000 It's. I guess my my in treatment what let me think i'm part.
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:26.000 I hopefully will be part of a really big mission to try and a sort of unworld.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:34.000 The pace that technology is taking, where that's taking a sinner destructive way really quickly, at a really major university, and who knows where that goes.
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:41.000 But the thing is that we need to take other people along on a journey, and there's a lot of these people will not stop to read this book.
00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:47.000 So as we go along. if we can come up with metaphors, examples, or little things, you could say, Don't read the whole book.
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:53.000 Just read this one little piece or something that's riff off another person's work that we could say this is the same point.
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:56.000 The grape is making in this very illustrative way.
00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:00.000 It could be a piece of social media. it could be a Ted Talk.
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:12.000 It could be an image, I think we should be finding those things as handholds for other people. because if we're going to do a study group, this isn't just for our own purposes, this is for working with other people If we don't take those people
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:17.000 along the journey. They're not gonna be someone who wants to read and discuss a book in detail.
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:23.000 They've lost a mission at the beginning. but like you know grab has done this work for us.
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000 He's not laying ground anymore. You know He checked his guide to the galaxy.
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:35.000 The tone of this book is like, but amazing things can happen when people get together and just deal with their circumstances selected.
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:45.000 Oh, and and a bit of luck i'm amused by that you know there's a bit of fun and hoping that you know grave is not around to riff on that.
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:52.000 But maybe we Can actually do something useful to say and here's. another version of you don't have to read the book, but we've done enough of this.
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:59.000 This is solid enough, and you can match it with this part of the book and read the stuff if you like.
00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:03.000 But he's 50 other people who are saying pretty much the same thing.
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:09.000 You can trust this, it would be completely right by experiment will be right or wrong.
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:14.000 But yeah, that's my from a mission point of view we've got to think about other people.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:20.000 They're not going to read the book like we will a lot of people won't, which is part of the problem.
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:29.000 So we reached our thanks. Everybody I appreciate your time here and I think we're doing great work.
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:32.000 We'll figure it out a little bit more on the mattermost channel, Trevor.
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:39.000 I'll send you an email how to get on the mattermost and I'll post the recording and stuff.
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:44.000 Thank you if you're interested in participating in the Wiki.
00:57:44.000 --> 00:58:05.000 That would be obsidian and sinking so Bill and I will help you if you're so inclined that don't feel you. ```