``` WEBVTT
00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:08.000 also did Jordan get a chance to check on lumbering check out?
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:24.000 No, not everyone has. Yeah, I was just going to comment that that the overriding consideration in that conversation that we just had is that each of us looks at the world through our own filters.
00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:30.000 It's an inevitable feature of at least human mental processing.
00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:38.000 We test everything we see against what our experience is and we believe that our experience gives us wisdom and insight.
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:48.000 That's contradicted by my scientific training, which there there's never any real truth you're only doing an experiment to try to get closer to an understanding.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:58.000 And it's the best approximation at the time so I think that's something that we can examine in any of these books, but it's it's intrinsic and what each of us responds to in
00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:14.000 the book as well. Thanks, Judy. Is there anybody else besides Jordan who needs to check in
00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:18.000 I think we went around during the do you want to do it?
00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:26.000 A quick check-in and now you're on recording so you're different than the rest of us preferred to not break the flow.
00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:31.000 That's wonderful emergent conversation so I will skip the check-in.
00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:36.000 So the conversation can merge best to get you all. Thanks.
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:56.000 Okay, So this one for me is just a process thing. I cannot just personally participate in a conversation, and also try and make notes and look at what is happening in the notes.
00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:05.000 I literally cannot do that. If I do that I will not hear what you're saying, even though it's in my ears.
00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:10.000 Yeah, and I know I so I don't this is me, I can't think there was a time when I was much younger.
00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:15.000 Maybe I was flowing myself down, but here's where I am now.
00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:23.000 I would like to say because of what? if I could ask about that without disrupting your your next thought?
00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:31.000 I think that's fine I you should concentrate on the conversation. What What do we think And maybe for everybody?
00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:36.000 What do we think about me sharing the the notes as as we're going?
00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:45.000 Is that going to be disruptive of people or is that helpful? If I read the notes I won't be listening, or vice versa?
00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:55.000 People can you see people enough that you can still see people, or This is bigger one's a personal preference.
00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:01.000 What's that i'd rather see faces bigger as a personal preference.
00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Okay, So if you want to see notes login to the Google, Doc, and let's see if faces thanks Bill you were you were about to say something else as a sidebar, if the group really wants to get to place where we have notes and follow
00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:29.000 spaces. I mean I will just not look at the notes I haven't enough have enough discipline to do that, so that I actually participate.
00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:46.000 Trevor. i'd like to say what you said really struck me because one way that I am reading this book to sort of note where i'm like, So did you guys just really say that and maybe put a checkmark and I think
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:48.000 I will go back and make some of my own annotations.
00:03:48.000 --> 00:04:06.000 But just move on forward. Okay, you said, that what's next. So I really would like to give them a full benefit of the doubt that they are just doing their best to try and do their own unearthing of all this stuff.
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:19.000 And to you know, provide a different context. So you for me Now i'm just like, Okay, i'll put on your rose colored glasses, and we'll go see what the world is like Maybe you know who knows I might you know make
00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:27.000 my bump into a rock I don't know but so but I appreciate, you know, for me that's the fact.
00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:40.000 I am buried right I mean I am buried in the culture of the United States, since when I was born living in New York City, writing on the subway, reading, advertising, looking what's on billboards, I mean it's like
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.000 baked. So that is what I am trying to like.
00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:49.000 Can I chip away at this thing see what's let's be behind there.
00:04:49.000 --> 00:05:02.000 Anyway. So that's I so even though I think I you know, here's the question question came up maybe at the end that I might try and do this by myself.
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:10.000 Maybe when I finish reading it to section, you know, has a button of mind been pushed, and which one is that?
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:18.000 Just write that down, because that would give me an opportunity to learn partially about what I think.
00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:38.000 Well as maybe what is provided by actually thinking about it. Hank, if you could wait for a sack, yeah, or more than effect.
00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:44.000 But so one of the things, because of the way that the the meeting emerged.
00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.000 We didn't capture what trevor said on the recording
00:05:48.000 --> 00:06:00.000 It was some pretty juicy stuff so part of me is super sad, and I like i'll shoot I screwed up part of me is super happy because I'm looking to the future people feature white people watching this recording
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:17.000 and going, hey? I I was there when trevor said that thing, and you guys weren't so I I I purposely like treasured that moment for a little bit, because it wasn't recorded do we want to kind of go
00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:22.000 back and get the gist of that over do we want?
00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:31.000 I think that would be desirable. terrific recapitulating that Yeah, that's fine.
00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:36.000 Yeah. the i'm starting with a skepticism of of one ground.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:49.000 Well, I think I think the book is great because it gives a wide diversity of different cultures a chance to sort of speak.
00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:54.000 That's great thanks yummy i've done a lot of I was.
00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:15.000 I did start writing or talk about history, you know, overwhelming because I realized that since about 1,980, the amount of stuff we actually know about to write the range of cultures as existing has exploded a lot of
00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:29.000 that has to do with things like, rescue iology in India and China, and places where they've started to develop very very rapidly and and urbanize, and it's done a lot of those rescue.
00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:36.000 I told you it's completely changed what people thought about the history of those places, and they are 2 very important places in the world.
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:49.000 So, I and I wanted to write this book and I couldn't even keep up with it, because I just realized it was my a global research project, which which is just beyond beyond one person doing so.
00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:52.000 So I think the point is the confusion that very easy to make.
00:07:52.000 --> 00:08:03.000 This is probably not quite what I said before but it's really related to it is that i'm going to quote a little thing that Grieber says, because I've got it in my notes, and I could share these notes at some
00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:11.000 point, but he talks about it's on page 25 Actually, I think somebody else mentioned he talks about.
00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:18.000 Yeah, there are lots of things going on in the world much more than just 9 people wandering around and having bans.
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:33.000 He says The answer question is what was going on. He says the answers are often unexpected, and suggests that the course of human history maybe less sit in stone, more full of place playful possibilities that we tend to assume
00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:44.000 and that's a very, very good point but I think his tendency is to overestimate the playfulness within any one of those cultures.
00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:53.000 Playfulness is something we valued but I mean even if you if you're a Muslim, I know a lot of people who are.
00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:03.000 I Don't, quite know about the there's none of pollution but there's an expression called Beta in the just in most Islam, and it's 1.2,000,000,000 Muslims on the planet.
00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:09.000 Feeder is the word for innovation, and they are very, very suspicious of it.
00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:14.000 They consider innovation to be escaping and leaving the essence of their tradition.
00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:19.000 So they're very uncomfortable about it so it's not even just indigenous.
00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:23.000 It coaches that i'm not literate that we're talking about here.
00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:34.000 They're talking about a major culture that we're still in the same world with that intrinsically is very, very suspicious of innovation and playfulness and things.
00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:39.000 It's actually quite dangerous. it's just suspicious Now, don't think we tend to take that into account.
00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:47.000 It's a much bigger thing sorry that's not quite what I said before, but I think it's relevant and similar just around the same thing.
00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:58.000 I wonder? kind of a gloss of what you said. I want to capture that, too, or
00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:15.000 What you were saying was that you you had a mistrust of grabber, and when grow, because ultimately they couldn't represent other cultures, even though they they gave it a good shot, and we talked a little bit about you know they tried and they
00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:21.000 they were aware of that failing, but but ultimately they can't right?
00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:46.000 So I think I think i'd like to hear from you about that. I also really like this story about the the stone temples, and how they, you know, have a representation of heaven to make the stone temples, and then that Charisma ends
00:10:46.000 --> 00:11:04.000 up collapsing into oppression. yeah I think it's a universal pattern, and it relates to the fact that when grown great, but sorry that it had to fight a depth first 5,000 years, he talks about something
00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:20.000 like sorry he talks about moral modalities he says there's 3 of them, and he hooked all spell one of them, because communism, which I often think is a red rag to a bull for a lot of Americans so I think it's
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:26.000 better to call it unconditional care, like caring for people with no expectation of war.
00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:36.000 Yeah, could tell us about it. Exchange, which is kind of deal making, which is generally, as he says, between strangers.
00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:51.000 It talks about hierarchy but he doesn't distinguish between a kind of hierarchy of somebody that's saying something that you're drawn to and you might want to participate in voluntarily which
00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:59.000 I call guardianship. Yeah, and then there's conditioned hierarchy, which is a power structure.
00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:08.000 So is oppressing people. Well, i'm putting him inside a power structure, and I think they're different and I don't think they made that distinction.
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:21.000 I don't think lamb is put that distinction very well. It's what I wanted to talk to the guy about, because I think it's quite an important point. I mean really last thing about a legitimate form of inspiring people to
00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:29.000 participate in something, and it turning into an illegitimate Iraqi, because it becomes oppressive.
00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:34.000 And I think if you look at the wise and fall of civilizations, that's the cycle they go through.
00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:43.000 That was. Yes, yeah. so it's a but trevor Do you mind if I pull out a couple other things for my for my notes?
00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:50.000 I don't want to dominate this conversation so yeah Yeah, and I think, Pete. I took some notes right in the heart of what I think you were trying to get back to.
00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:56.000 And I think this is this is really important. right so so Trevor, please correct.
00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:04.000 If this is not what you're saying but let me try to mirror back what I think you were trying to say you were talking that before.
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:14.000 There's there's the narrative that there was these Egalitarian small bands of hunter-gatherers. and then it was kind of agriculture, and then that led to cities.
00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:24.000 And we started to organize ourselves. you were pointing to some of the ancient stone temples that obviously took a phenomenal amount of human organization.
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:34.000 And I heard you say, you feel like they're underestimating the extent to which getting people to come together and do something requires that inspiration.
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:39.000 And that's often that inspiration is often associated with something of the divine.
00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:54.000 The idea that there is a external pattering patterning that's being sensed, and that maybe we have the the opportunity for some element of that patterning to end break and become represented somehow in our present reality and and so
00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:11.000 there's a start of many ideas and traditions that is a idea that's so compelling that people want to voluntarily associate with it, and that's required to and encourage collective action, and that that in the begin it's
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:16.000 noble and good over time as a founder dies.
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:21.000 Subsequent people misunderstand the idea. We construct walls around the garden, you know.
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:26.000 We start charging rent. We start, you know, establishing the hierarchy around a pure idea.
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:32.000 It devolves into basically a oppressive illegitimate power structure.
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:46.000 So what began as voluntary cooperation around an ideal for a idea that was noble and good over time to evolve into That's a pattern, and I would just say that you mentioned that as the pattern of civilization
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:51.000 I see it in the pattern of religion, so I see it in the pattern of martial arts traditions.
00:14:51.000 --> 00:15:00.000 I see it in the pattern of something worthy that's truthful. that's articulated that's good that we gather around that then through subsequent iterations eventually devolves.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:09.000 So so that's like, Yeah, sorry trevor you hit That's a that's a that is a beautiful articulation of what I was getting at.
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:29.000 But I and I, and I, because great inspired me to think about this, how they're about moral modalities, I just feel that the distinction between being a healthy guardian, something and power power freak quitting charging for conditioned
00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:37.000 hierarchy, which uses a punishment and reward, and becomes a kind of fixed, static thing that kills us.
00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:48.000 Everything a really important distinction. I want that's really why I want to sort of graver about when I was a I don't need the guy, because I think it's really important as a distinction in all our
00:15:48.000 --> 00:16:03.000 lives, and we it's easy for people to through the bb out with the Bath water by being so suspicious and higher on key that they won't accept something that that might be something quite healthy and legitimate they can't tell the difference
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:12.000 between correct. Yes, it's food and It does happen everywhere it happens, as you say, martial arts.
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:17.000 It happens in cult formation wasn't for whatever it's just everywhere.
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:35.000 Yeah, so so there's I this is a perfect segment to Eric's question on hobbes and and yourself or so or so. I I don't need to somebody else could but I could quickly articulate those I think it relates
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:41.000 exactly to these these 2 impulses, and Then it ties out to the agent schools as well.
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:55.000 So that's interesting. I could try to do that in less than 3 min, or somebody else could attempt, and you should go forward to I'm going to approach it from martial arts first just because we haven't read it and then come
00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:06.000 back in the Chinese traditions like in let's say that in the the let's say, from minus 1,000 to the year 0.
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:12.000 You saw this like you saw all this thinking and these traditions come up, and I've done some of this mapping of this.
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:26.000 But but let's say that in the the Chinese tradition there's a tradition of legalism that they basically says humans are so innately worth less immoral selfish diabolical and left to their own devices it's a
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:42.000 state of everyone worrying against each other like hunger games, let's say, in our modern parlance, and so, therefore, we need an extremely strong state bureaucracy, standing armetary army military police
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:59.000 bureaucratic control to remove those freedoms and create enough structure in which we won't tear each other apart, and those end up in concentrating extreme amounts of power in dictators who rule people against their
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:07.000 will right, and so that that becomes the inherited, often corrupted power structures on one hand.
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:19.000 So that would be like Hobbes and Leviathan. basically the the the view that were were so evil from the start that we need strong bureaucracy to control and oppress our our base or instincts the other
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:30.000 side is the as the authors paint the false dichotomy is Rousseau with the idea that maybe we're innately good, and we've fallen from grace, so to speak, and and you can find
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:44.000 that, and whatever that enlightenment thinking is or in the Christian religion, but that that we have that we have fallen, and that there's maybe some hope of redemption usually it's painted as the authors pointed out in a way that's
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:53.000 that's actually disenpowering and paints it until as a continual degradation that's almost like a death spiral.
00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:01.000 You can't get out of and so the the author's kind of point that it really limits your ability to think that there might be a solution or a way out of the problem.
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:14.000 And so to tie those 2 threads back to what Trevor was saying, it's like well, what if those weren't the options and and instead of being oppressively controlled by tyrannical
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:20.000 hierarchies who express, you know, a press and exploit us to our detriment.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:32.000 What if we could voluntarily assemble ourselves into something, that was noble and good, and maybe there's solutions, and maybe we can voluntarily work together to create some of those solutions?
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:45.000 And so I think that's kind of where they the authors are going with with those 2 storylines, and and the last closing thought is, it seems like it reflects this polarity of of yin and yang whatever those
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:54.000 whatever those polarities that always are, and you know the the chances to rise up and meet in the middle.
00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:14.000 Forge something better. Anybody want to add to that i'd like to add the confounding contemplation for another time of individualism versus Collectivism in this discussion?
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:21.000 Thanks, Judy. I'm going to suggest we sit switch gears a bit.
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:27.000 Not because I want to, not because I want a bit because we've got time.
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:43.000 Time is a thing let's do the 2 min go around everybody does kind of a round robin and and talk about whatever I'm going to rent us in order of of how people are on the screen.
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:50.000 If that's Okay, So hank you're up first how about that?
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:58.000 Okay, well, i've put a number of notes in the and the online document.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:06.000 So you can see my thinking about that. one of the things I really like to emphasize is that for me?
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:18.000 This book is about questioning the questions that you ask it's about questioning their questions that society has been asking since.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:37.000 He brings it back in the first chapter at any rate, to the beginning of the eighteenth century, with the first confrontation with indigenous people. non white Europeans who had a high civilization and wouldn't
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.000 understand where those wacky Europeans came from but all throughout the first chapter.
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:52.000 He's talking about the fundamental the foundational story the fundamental assumptions of our society, and then he makes this really terrific point.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:02.000 He says neither Rousseau nor Hobbes actually said that they believed that human society is really like that.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:11.000 They were doing. fourth experiments and doing a thought experiment is, in fact, what I believe they are doing grape.
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:23.000 And when pro in this entire book the they are saying something they're looking for evidence, if they can't find evidence they say well, there's no evidence so I won't say anything.
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:38.000 But here are some questions, and I was copying out when I read this stuff today a number of the questions they ask like, What if we stop telling the story about falling from some idyllic state of equality?
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:45.000 What if we ask how we came to be trapped in such tight conceptual shackles that you didn't know?
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:50.000 We can no longer even imagine the possibility of reinventing ourselves.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:58.000 What if we treat people as imaginative, intelligent, playful creatures who should be understood as such?
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:04.000 I love those questions because they're not questioned some of them.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:09.000 I might ask myself. but a lot of them are questions that make perfect sense when you read them.
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:24.000 And you think, yeah, absolutely let's let's take a couple of days or a couple of weeks, and think about these things So I think, and i'll just call a second from from my notes one of the things that that
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:30.000 grey and wincro didn't want to do was write a needlessly dull book, so they made the choice.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:39.000 They'll go out in a limb and they won't be need loosely dull, and they'll be provocative, and maybe, as they also say on page 21.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:43.000 They'll say things that are in the final analysis slightly ridiculous.
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:48.000 But if it provokes people into thinking then they've done their job.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.000 Anyway. that's my 2 cents thank you very much hank I'm.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:11.000 Next in cute i'm gonna pass for today, and so Eric I was very struck by the examples given where they say dreams and vision quests traveling healers and entertainers and women's gambling because
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:29.000 that's totally counterintuitive to the way I think, and I'm wondering what else is to come in the book, and I mean I could understand when they describe it, how it has some value in certain cultures but I have
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:45.000 to get used to being present to you. know. lowering my defenses a little bit to let in some ideas that may not I'm not comfortable with at first, Thanks, Thanks, Eric.
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:56.000 Yeah, Thanks. So I don't know you've all seen this is a book that came us up several years ago.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:09.000 By this Eric Geron Sinki, who was a professor of German, and he basically didn't get tenure, and he left university, and he went out and wrote a book called 9 A manifesto.
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:16.000 So this is like it's just a set of little aphorisms that are profound and hysterical.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:31.000 But the opening, just because we're talking about thinking hank so it's a quote from theater Adorno the pleasure of thinking it cannot be recommended here.
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Here, so I mean it's just it goes on from there it's just the very anyway very funny, and you know intelligent little book.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:02.000 So the one thing I want to respond to run trevor when you were talking this thing about I think you're right about that kind of way that grabber and wrinkle kind of like we're gonna Look at it
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:06.000 this way, and I think you're right like they throw out the word Communism.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:14.000 You. but you can see them like smirts in the background. We're just gonna lay this out a few people and you're gonna have to deal with it just like when they call the indigenous. people.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:24.000 We're gonna call them Americans or the capital a for this discussion. You'll have to get over it, you know, and or you know, pay attention.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:33.000 But I think in my own experience here, just in our current society, the innovation is also resisted, except if you're doing technology.
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:40.000 I have a lot of several friends who are artists that I put very good to tell you.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:51.000 You know it's you got to be out there and people don't like it, and I went I was an experiment with electronic music, which I could get back to.
00:26:51.000 --> 00:27:06.000 But the first time I went out and I was exploring in these online groups, and I found a huge group of women in New York younger women doing all this electronic music and stuff from like hold. mean only this is like I've been there I'm: in the
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:16.000 so called music Capital of the world. there's not a group like that here. i'm like no I want to be in New York City with these young women, and they can teach me how to do electronic music.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:23.000 So there is a lot of innovation there's a lot of experimentation, and a lot of it is resisted for me.
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:28.000 That's the one of the readings from this book it's just like what Eric was saying.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:36.000 You know. Well, we couldn't. think of any reason why people exchange items, except, you know, collect some money. It's like Well, you got to get out more.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:42.000 Maybe they just want to visit with you other spoke a piper to watch the sunset.
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000 I don't give you know it's possible so for me you're like Hank.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:55.000 This book is just the joy that just like, Can we just dig into this?
00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:05.000 And you know. So you know i'm here for it thank you Bill.
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:25.000 Cc: You're up next yeah i'm gonna pay off because most of what i'm thinking about would fall into salon seating conversations. the one thing that's really clear to me though is that what's missing
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:40.000 in whatever we're looking at is what women brought to the time, and I think that ties into I heard creativity mentioned, and individuality versus
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:48.000 The collective, I mean. My first thought was, you know, in thinking about all the paintings on the caves.
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:54.000 Did people bring them food, or did they consider them? what do you call it?
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:01.000 What do you call that graffiti people you know like It's just a totally different way of looking at things.
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:06.000 So I'm gonna not common so much on the writing and save my talking for another time.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:16.000 Thanks, Stacey, I have to note that I asked my wife if she wanted to join the book club, and so she started reading the book.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.000 She got 3% into it in the middle of the first chapter.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.000 So she's like pete women aren't in this book i'm not in this book.
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:27.000 Women are are a frickin footnote I ain't reading anymore.
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:41.000 I'm out so yeah it's a bit of a conversation about that in the Madamos Channel, and and that's gonna be one of my great big questions is this book sexist, and part of it is they've they acknowledge that
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:49.000 They've got a viewpoint and you know they talk about the feminist perspective that did not go over well with my wife.
00:29:49.000 --> 00:30:03.000 She's like Why, isn't it the perspective and there are women who have the perspective as well as men instead of Oh, we're gonna go over and visit the feminist perspectives. she was royally pissed and every time
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:11.000 she hears anything about the book. I get it again. and that book I don't know, you know, anyway, so that's another one of the big questions around this book.
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:25.000 Yes, smack of tokenism when it's put that way, yeah, I unless inclined to want those conversations as to just add it like, I don't want to blame it for not being there but let's just
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:35.000 add it, because I actually think that when drordan points out the 2 distinct ways of thought that there is a way to combine it, and that, I think is gonna come from a woman's.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:42.000 Perspective. but I just suspect that's the case Wendy Whenndy Mcclain had a good answer.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:31:00.000 Actually Mark and twon both had good answers to to Man's observation, which was posted by me not by joy. Jordan, you're up next I didn't check in i'm Sorry Bill thank you for suggesting this
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.000 to bring us here just one here without here. so thank you for shooting us.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:22.000 Stacy I agree that there's a way to combine them, and that it's in the meeting of the combination of fine troops. and I think that's what we're here in the service of the thing that I
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:30.000 appreciated about the first chapter and about what we're all doing together in multiple circles that we're in as we're.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:58.000 I think we're coming to an obvious realization that the basic stories that we've been told are not true and are not necessarily functional and create tremendous mental emotional spiritual shackles prevent us from our best possible
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:13.000 selves and our best possible futures. There is a I think it was Tolstoy who said one of the most important steps for anybody on their their journey was the liberation from their child to agree legends.
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:26.000 And he was. he was speaking there from Christian perspective time but it's amazing when you, when you think about that it's like well, liberation from our childhood religion isn't that most valuable and history is a little bit like religion
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:35.000 but in that it's a guiding structure to try to orient you to where you are, and it's a little bit like elementary school, and at least gives you some kind of context and narrative.
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:48.000 But if you stay in elementary school forever you know that you'll never become what we're intended to be, and so I feel like what we're in the process is a little bit like graduating from or liberating ourselves,
00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:02.000 from elementary school, and we can look back on that with contempt and disdain for its simplicity, or we can say, well, thank God, there was some kind of story to Orion us, and at least it got us here, and there, was some
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:10.000 helpful things. But now it's time to graduate and move forward, and that requires that we we have a completely different level of openness.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:19.000 And possibility and imagination and mastery and all those great things that that I think we're here for the last.
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:26.000 The last maybe concept I just want to tie in. that I was thinking of is, I think Trevor and and Bill and Hankin others were talking.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:39.000 Is the the the guess. It comes from psychology, and maybe from the Germans something like, I think they called it good orphan height, which is like thrown this.
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:50.000 And so the reality is that we're all thrown into some time and place and culture, and and someone made the comment that wherever you are, in whatever time you are you're not really free with your perception of the world so it's like you're
00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:02.000 thrown into the some time and place in the world in some ways it provides protection and structure and benefit to you from the past, that you didn't deserve or create on your own. On the other side it can be tyrannical and
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:07.000 oppressive and you didn't set It up and it's not matched for the time anymore.
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:14.000 And so I think that all those existential concepts come into we're, all thrown into a time in place.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:22.000 We have the elementary structures that orient us but Then we have to transcend us, transcend them, and rise above and through this kind of dialogue.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:33.000 What we're doing another places. I think we have the possibility of forging a much clearer map of where we are, how we got here, where we're going. Why, it.
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:42.000 Matters. What's we're sacrificing for what We might be able to do together what the possibilities for how to reconcile the maps that don't match to a higher order?
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:47.000 Standard all those good things, and so happy to be here in service to all that with you.
00:34:47.000 --> 00:35:04.000 Thank you, Jordan. Michael I'm gonna pass as well i'm having salon thoughts, but but not having fully read the first chapter, should play enough next.
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:31.000 Thanks, Michael Trevor. Yeah, I want to address the question about Well, the families prospect, because I think is really important, and i'm doing some very interesting work with core platform Corp transforming the way that social care gets done in the
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:43.000 Uk, where it usually gets done is totally dysfunction because he's a horrible kind of mechanistic It's not like delivering care.
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:47.000 It's like delivering so people who work in a factory or something.
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:51.000 It's just disgusting I mean it's like horrible to working on that.
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:56.000 And the founders are too very, very charismatic and brilliant women, and they are.
00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:12.000 They're just fantastic I love to bits and and I I sort of told him about this stuff about moral modalities, because I use it as a kind of way of working with people in a way of thinking about what what we're all
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:19.000 doing, and one of the reflections is that if you think about infrastructure.
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:30.000 I define Infrastructure there's all the stuff that sustains us, but we don't notice it's there until it doesn't work anymore.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:37.000 Yeah, So we, you know, here I am sitting in a room with electric electric power.
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:41.000 I don't think twice about it here, we are with this computer.
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:51.000 It works i'm talking to you guys that the amount of layers of infrastructure that made that possible that we don't even think about is staggering.
00:36:51.000 --> 00:37:04.000 I mean it's just this might problem and the perspective I take is the ultimate infrastructure that sustains human life everywhere is women's work.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:17.000 Yeah, because it is so taken for granted that it's going to get delivered, because actually all bets would be off if it wasn't everybody pays no attention to it.
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:22.000 And doesn't respect it because it Oh, well, the women will always do that.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:31.000 So we have to worry about that guys can all run around for playing our games and being clever and doing all that kind of stuff because they'll look after the kids, and they'll do all that.
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:48.000 And actually i think that's why? they don't show up in history, because in so many parts of the world, they are the sustaining infrastructure that keeps everything else going, and it's taken completely for granted because
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:52.000 of that, and therefore they're not in the story which frankly is ridiculous.
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:59.000 But think that's why that is that's sad but true.
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:24.000 Think that is why that is thanks trevor judy you're muted. I don't do very well with dualism, so the opposition of feminine and masculine is a problem for me.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:30.000 I have assertive traits that some men labeled as unfeminent.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:46.000 I have gentle traits that were far out done by my husband's gentleness, and so I have I have a personal issue with a gender dualization and with most dualizations as grossly inadequate
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:58.000 simplifications. Having said that, I don't think I even read things with a filter of who said them, or who wrote them, I read them with.
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:03.000 Does that fit with what I know if it doesn't how could I test it somehow.
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:15.000 So i'm very curious about anything that can prove or disapprove validate or invalidate statement that's made
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:28.000 So I've learned in life. in order not to confront people that I should start my response with I wonder if how this would fit in context of X or I'm.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:35.000 Probably looking at this differently. But why Because i'm often taking a contrarian point of view?
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:47.000 And I think that that's part of the value of human civilization is that there are people who look critically at things, and I like that.
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:59.000 That's happening in this book, i'm not enough of an anthropologist or a historian, or an archaeologist, or to really be able to use my own factual knowledge to cross-check so I
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.000 appreciate the wisdom of people who are more schooled in those areas.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:06.000 Just have sort of an intuitive barometer.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:17.000 That kind of I get provoked if something doesn't make sense to me, and quotes, and then I have to dig into it because of me that it doesn't make sense.
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.000 Or is it because of external available information? or what is it?
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:27.000 So i'm i'm kind of perplexed at this point.
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Because the book is dense to read and it's not my Field. But I'm enjoying the publication.
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:56.000 Yeah, thank you just add one piece it's not just the role of women's work that's left out what's left out is the role of play and ritual that while maybe it's more concentrated in the
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:07.000 female populations affected an entire population, I felt like I think we soon, as we think about ritual, as there was only one reason for it, and we're not exploring the other reasons.
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:18.000 And there are, you know, the same for play, and just want to add that Thanks, Stacey, I think we've gone around the room.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:23.000 Rachel had to get off to work so we missed her.
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:30.000 Does anybody want to add add something else? Typical little building block on? what? Stacy said?
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:38.000 The role of play and ritual I guess I don't want to say anything other than I just want to like.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:42:01.000 Triple emphasize that as it relates to what we're doing, and I think one of the things that's happened, and our society is that the rituals that we were playing out that bound societies
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:18.000 together, associated with what trevor said it's like But it's like there's maybe decent ideas that went through an arc and became oppressive, corrupted power structures that then the rituals holding
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:28.000 society together. were associated with, and so we kind of discarded them all, and and it's like maybe we lost something there, and and it.
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:43.000 I think that there's a deep process of going like basically every prophecy whether it's a from many traditions basically says that in the time when things turn better, we'll remember you know the ancient traditions, and and
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:57.000 we'll teach one another those and we'll learn why we were doing them, and why someone thought it was necessary 12 times a year to come together and prepare a meal, and be thankful or why you know and so I think that I think
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:05.000 that's a core part of our work here is to not discard with casual contempt that things that held things together.
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:13.000 But to find out what was true about them, maybe, and and rediscover and dive into those depths in a different way.
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:16.000 So. thanks for bringing that up, Stacey. Thanks, Jordan.
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:22.000 I wonder if we can put ritual and play into a big question into a short back question?
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:41.000 Yeah, I I would. Second, I would second that how would you say that turn if it, if you were making it into a question, I've got the question, What How are we going to put ritual in a play into our daily activities?
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:47.000 Yeah, and and then so let's say that that's part one or 2.
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:54.000 The other part is like what have we maybe there's 3 questions one's like.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:04.000 Has anything been lost? Discarding all of our collective rituals like, Was there anything important there that we threw out?
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:13.000 What is the role of play and ritual in an ongoing, healthy society that can last for multiple generations.
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.000 And then I think Bill's question is then brings it to the earth.
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:20.000 It's like, What are we gonna do about that how how do we insert that?
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:33.000 So. thanks, Jordan, and right on the dot folks, I would like to switch to retros.
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:44.000 So. So we have 15 min, and I also want to turn off the recording and chat for 5 min kind of at the end.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:45:01.000 So. tell me I i'm I think I want to share notes, and i'm going to take notes into the
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:08.000 Maybe that at the bottom, and maybe other folks can join me down here as well.
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:28.000 But what went well in this call lively discussion. Yeah, I think I We heard from everyone.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:42.000 I believe I I appreciated how present each person on the call was a lot of times on these kind of calls.
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:46.000 People have their screens off of the right everybody's being really present for the conversation.
00:45:46.000 --> 00:46:05.000 Lots of interesting notes were taken, most on this document, and in the in the chat lots of stuff to read over and think about what else went.
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:26.000 Well, good people came together to talk about meaningful things. Say that a second time, Jordan, good good people came together to talk about meaningful things.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:44.000 Questions to explore were generated in the next time not having finished the chapter I really appreciated has sent you guys were about not giving any spoilers. man.
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:59.000 You're into it now. it was it was a good kickoff, I mean, we've got lots to everyone has a lot to say, and a lot to think about.
00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:10.000 This is a great web starts. We switch to what we might do differently next time.
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:34.000 So I like that format i'm thinking what record earlier you could always edit If you don't want to lose somebody's words of wisdom.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:59.000 Anybody else. there's a way to capture the provocative that the I was just provoked reaction at something.
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:11.000 We read that we could then bring into the session what we're sharing By the time i've read something 4 days ago, when I come into the meeting, will have forgotten what provoked me.
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:17.000 You can always add that to the chat the matter most.
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:36.000 And if you if you tag it somehow you know if we maybe if we start a convention of maybe I a certain hashtag, or something like that, we can pick it up, and and bring it into the next meeting another another thing similarly, is
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:42.000 Maybe that's a trigger that it's a big question, and then you can capture it as a big question.
00:48:42.000 --> 00:49:03.000 Just 1. one quick note is, I think, the I think we could really compress the check-ins and not have them bleed into discussion somehow.
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:08.000 Is that that kind of more bit? So So if we were there, Yeah.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:14.000 But human check-ins. The other thing that I just love.
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:32.000 I guess this is an invitation. but but we have this idea of the Meta project going that we're going to try to design and build. looking towards so i'd love to see a connection between me extremely rich dialogue
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:46.000 insights wisdom that come out and how those inform what we're building as a he tries to emerge and and maybe just some mechanism to make sure we're not violating any of the principles that are
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:57.000 just discovered like, How do we use all this rich ground as making sure that we're matching all the best principles that we're excavating? I don't know how to say that, but just an invitation to connect up was
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:05.000 realms. Yeah, I got a This is a the chickens.
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:15.000 It sounds too structured, but somehow, one way, I think that might help just contain it would be if we had.
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:20.000 When we get together for the thing we have a little bit of an opening question that you get.
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:26.000 You know you can get store a few words out about either the chapter or something.
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:42.000 Just so everybody gets a sharp period of time and we did this on one of these other calls, and then you got 3 sections of typing. One word about You know how you're feeling now, whatever but something about the chapter that would kind
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:49.000 of kept the just kept the check in, so it was really contained.
00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:05.000 Yeah, Well, another thing might be to give it some kind of form which I think is sort of to what what Bill is saying.
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:14.000 I always think of on the at the webby awards everybody's acceptance speaks required to be 5 words.
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:20.000 So people get really creative. With that i'm not saying we should limit it to 5 words.
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:39.000 We said everybody. everybody check in It needs to be one sentence without conjunctions, or I don't know where you have have 10 s, or I don't know something Well, I like that because i'm laughing, I would like to
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:43.000 be laughing more So it's just that but that's just me.
00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:50.000 Do we need chickens, or maybe i'll ask that a different way?
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:53.000 What is the purpose of a check-in, that that we should spend time on it at all?
00:51:53.000 --> 00:52:09.000 And I was gonna say that unless there is new people here that we don't really need them unless we ask is there anything burning for anybody that they really need to get up their chest before we start
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:30.000 And if you're on it, maybe we limit the check into who we are, what our name, you know what our name is, and welcome. then we'll get to know each other as we discuss my my reason for putting in agendas checking as humans at the beginning is is to
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:35.000 kind of get everybody into the the same energy vibe you know from wherever they're coming from.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:44.000 Kind of get us into the room. obviously we didn't really need it on this meeting, and and we ended up.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:49.000 Not, I ended up, not recording the some of the great stuff that happened during the what?
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:53.000 You know what I meant for the to be the check-in?
00:52:53.000 --> 00:53:00.000 So so maybe we don't need check-ins and Stacy.
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:06.000 Thanks for the idea of, you know. kind of being in new people.
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:10.000 I always find the you know you know what's your name what you're, you know who you are.
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:16.000 It's kind of man you know it's it's too long. On the one hand, if you go around and it's too short.
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:23.000 On the other hand, because I kind of personally, I like to just get into it with people.
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:26.000 And then as you said you learn who who's who's who and who's what?
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:39.000 But so maybe we don't need check-ins I do like Bill's idea of waterfall answers to you know you know.
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.000 What did you think about the chapter? What was the live for you in the chapter?
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.000 What you know. What did the chapter mean to you I like that a lot? I wouldn't call that a check-in.
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.000 I would call out a start of the You know the meeting.
00:53:49.000 --> 00:54:06.000 I have a thing what we might do differently next time and it it's funny because it's gonna make i'm i'm sad and happy at the same time.
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:11.000 We did an amazing thing. People were did amazing notes Here Eric took amazing notes.
00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:16.000 Jordan took amazing notes. I took a little bit of notes not very much.
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:27.000 I I Mitchell, and hank got some in it's awesome that we had so many people taking notes.
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:36.000 I really like that? I was frustrated by having us in different, you know.
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:40.000 I wish I could see all the notes where people were typing at once.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:59.000 So that I can go. Oh, wow! jordan's talking about this or Hanks talking about that, or rachel's, you know, typing some cool stuff and my practice with people taking collaborative notes I like helping and I
00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:05.000 like when other people help me to capture, you know, capture a thought.
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:08.000 So I have a wish, and I don't know that this is the right thing.
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:20.000 Maybe it. Maybe it is. maybe it's not I eric I do need a V. Our immersive collaborative document system, the the I have a wish that we could all take notes together in the same place.
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:24.000 And then you have a different kind of mess. Everybody can see everything at once.
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:32.000 But then, when people are going off on different tandem it's hard to tell what's going on these notes are much more organized.
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:38.000 So. I I don't know How I would How I would dissolve them, could we?
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:56.000 I'm just wondering out of force of habit I was more in the chat than in notes, and yep, and i'm wondering if we handled the documents more like a chat.
00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:03.000 So that we were, I mean, not not but it's just that we interweave our observation.
00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:10.000 Yeah, and that's what I like to do taking collaborative notes, and during this meeting I ended up like I give up.
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:21.000 I'm gonna go over and take notes in the chat actually So so maybe a resolution to that I I don't want to collapse everybody into the same space for notes.
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:26.000 I think that's the wrong solution but maybe a solution is to talk about a little bit.
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:30.000 Okay, here's the section where we're gonna take chat style notes.
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:33.000 Here's a section where i'm just gonna take notes that you know.
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:48.000 Make sense altogether. So if we can have that conversation a little bit upfront going into note-taking, then i'll know how to play better, and other people might know how to play better, and we might get a few
00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:53.000 people who take chat style notes. We might still get a few people who have their own their own section, and I think that's that's good.
00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:09.000 Other things we might do differently next time. Sounds like looks like the plate is full of your whatever it's pretty false.
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:14.000 Yeah, So I just want to mention like in zoom the view we're looking at right now.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:28.000 If you only see one person talking on the right you can change your view to gallery and then move the bar in the middle to the left, and then you'll see that you could make the faces as big as you want or the document it
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:37.000 shares the screen People don't know about that there's also standard standard view.
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:45.000 You can select, and that changes the 2 standard. Oh, okay, well I see what you're doing.
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:57.000 But yeah, I like to just the amount of space i'm viewing the document versus the needs.
```